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Subject: Did you pre-order from Stuntkite? rss

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John Sheppard
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April 18, 2014: Pre-ordered Citrus from Stuntkite, along with Patchistory. Paid $125.14. At least $45 of that payment was for Citrus. This was supposed to be shipped in July, and was for my wife's birthday.

June 9th, 2014: Email sent from Stuntkite announcing a delay. Patchistory will now ship in mid-August and Citrus will be pushed back to October/November. There were some details about how Stuntkite was attempting to launch a startup under the old publishing model instead of doing a crowd-funding thing. Apparently printing Patchistory took more time and money that previously planned and it used up the money they had, so they couldn't print Citrus until Patchistory was selling and providing the funds. Additionally, there was some information about new games in development.

August 26th, 2014: Email announcing Patchistory is in. Citrus still delayed until funds are available. Further information about new games being planned.

Sept 10th, 2014: Email notification of Patchistory pre-orders shipping. Patchistory is in local store already. :-(

November 7th, 2014: An email asking people to pre-order Dice Brewing game. No mention of Citrus.

January 6th, 2015: Email Eric at Stuntkite to get an update on Citrus. Haven't heard anything in a while.

January 7th, 2015: Eric replies and says he has a plan to take care of pre-orders and will update everyone.

January 8th, 2015: Email to all pre-orders saying that Citrus is finally at the printers and will be here in a few months. Promises that pre-orders from before November 1st, 2014 will get a copy of Dice Brewing, with promos and play mats, free. All domestic orders will have shipping refunded, and all international orders will have 50% shipping refunded. Also announces new games in development.

June 8th, 2015: Sent email to Eric at Stuntkite asking for a Citrus update. Mentioned that a public update was overdue.

June 10th, 2015: Eric responds saying that I'm right, an update is needed, but that sadly, there isn't much to say. He says that Citrus is "kind of languishing at the printer and nothing has happened." He says he'll send out a public update "this week".

June 18th, 2015: After not getting any update, I email again and try to express how important communication is and to get an update out. I speculate that maybe he just doesn't have the money to publish the game and that we'll never get it. I tell him that even if that is the case, to just communicate with people.

June 23rd, 2015: His response is...

Stuntkite wrote:
There is no hiding or obfuscating going on. The truth of the matter is that there's very little to report so I haven't said much. Which I understand is frustrating, but when there's news to report I'm certainly eager to report it.

The long and the short of it since the last update is that after the halt I put on it after Essen when I learned about the German printer, I sent it to another printer I found in the interim. They sat on it for too long and I went back to Plan A - Panda. Well I took the opportunity to make a few more changes to the rule book that I wanted to, but that didn't cause any real delay. Now it's at Panda and they are going to begin soon.

This will be laid out in the update I will send out that I know is 'tardy.' I want to send an update of all things and I'm waiting on one bit of information before I can share it. Rather than send out a few separate e-mails I decided to wait and send it all out at once

(But upon further reflection I wonder if it had been better to send one e-mail JUST to Citrus pre-orders and then another mass update later)

I know exactly what you mean about not knowing leading to speculation. Any situation is much more palatable when you know the facts, generally even regardless of what those facts are. I've done my mea culpa on Citrus. I screwed up and have acknowledged that publicly and hopefully have given people a satisfactory compensation. But we're close finally. It's a great game and I want it out there in the world.

I will send out a large update on all titles once I have the last bit of information I'm waiting on.


Halted after Essen? German printer? What? Where was that in an update? First I heard of it.

In another email that same day he tells me to "look for an update coming soon" and promises that he'll "be better about keeping folk in the know."

August 8th, 2015: Still waiting on that update. Doubt it will ever show up. I doubt the game will ever be printed. I have no faith in what Eric says at this point. I have no faith in Stuntkite. Dice Brewing made it to the US and is in distribution/stores, since at least December 2014. Where is Citrus?

I'd like to know who else pre-ordered and especially if any of you are in the US state of Washington. The AG has been very interested in cases like this lately, where people are taking pre-orders for product and not delivering. I don't want to have to file a complaint with the AG. I'd rather have the game. But at this point, it's time to start gathering the facts and getting the paperwork together.
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John Van Valer
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Same pre-order scenario, but in California.

I agree, the US publisher (Eric - StuntKite) is showing little interest in supporting the product via his non-communication. As you note, he was more than happy to move up in priority and promote Dice Brewing instead of address his already committed Citrus orders.

Time for refunds - if there is even any money left.

 
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John Sheppard
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Thanks John. I tried as best I could to convince him that communicating was the way to go, even if just to tell people it wouldn't happen, and while he insisted that the project was moving forward and that he would send out an update to let people know, he just hasn't done it. I have no confidence in him.
 
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Bryson Yuzyk
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Did you get the copy of Patchistory that you ordered?
 
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John Sheppard
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Yubinshan wrote:
Did you get the copy of Patchistory that you ordered?


Yes, I got the copy of Patchistory. Shipping notification for that was on September 10th, 2014. Got it a few days later.
 
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Bryson Yuzyk
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Strange...

I preordered Patchistory and Citrus together last August, and haven't received either.

I sent Stuntkite an email asking about it but haven't received a response.

I'm pretty easygoing when it comes to delays; business can be complicated. But not having received either game or any communication in almost a year makes me uncomfortable...
 
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Bryson Yuzyk
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I heard from Eric this morning. Seems my not getting Patchistory was just a mix-up and they're going to rectify it.

He kindly offered me a refund on Citrus, but I told him not to worry about it. Even though it's been a long time, I don't mind waiting.
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John Sheppard
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Yubinshan wrote:
I heard from Eric this morning. Seems my not getting Patchistory was just a mix-up and they're going to rectify it.

He kindly offered me a refund on Citrus, but I told him not to worry about it. Even though it's been a long time, I don't mind waiting.


I don't mind waiting either, but waiting with no communication while estimated delivery times slip past and other games get priority in production...you're okay with this?
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Bryson Yuzyk
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Bosco312 wrote:
Yubinshan wrote:
I heard from Eric this morning. Seems my not getting Patchistory was just a mix-up and they're going to rectify it.

He kindly offered me a refund on Citrus, but I told him not to worry about it. Even though it's been a long time, I don't mind waiting.


I don't mind waiting either, but waiting with no communication while estimated delivery times slip past and other games get priority in production...you're okay with this?


Certainly it's amateur, but it just doesn't bother me that much. I guess I'm fairly forgiving when it comes to these things. I don't think they're in it to take the money and run; They're probably just making rookie mistakes because they're rookies. According to their BGG entry, they've been around for less than two years.

I'm not saying your perspective is unreasonable, only that on a personal level StuntKite's actions don't bother me that much.

In this business you vote with your dollar. If a publisher practices business in a way you disagree with, don't buy product from them. Take the refund if it's offered, which it sounds like it is. If you feel like their business practices are disreputable, spread the word like you're doing here.

In closing, I thank you for making this thread, even if we feel differently regarding the seriousness of the situation. Your comments will likely be helpful, both to the community who need to make purchasing decisions, and to StuntKite to improve their practices moving forward. I appreciate you keeping a level head, and I hope you get your copy of Citrus soon.
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John Sheppard
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Yubinshan wrote:
Certainly it's amateur, but it just doesn't bother me that much. I guess I'm fairly forgiving when it comes to these things. I don't think they're in it to take the money and run; They're probably just making rookie mistakes because they're rookies. According to their BGG entry, they've been around for less than two years.


For what it's worth, Stuntkite is a new brand, but Eric is not new to the business. He also operates under the Japanime Games brand (Krosmaster, Tanto Cuore, etc.) Combine that with multiple emails to him stressing the need to communicate and him agreeing with me, and you can't blame this lack of communication on being a rookie.

Yubinshan wrote:
In this business you vote with your dollar. If a publisher practices business in a way you disagree with, don't buy product from them. Take the refund if it's offered, which it sounds like it is. If you feel like their business practices are disreputable, spread the word like you're doing here.


To be fair, I've never asked for a refund, and given the choice, I might wait a bit, as I'm interested in the game more than the money. That said, in the discussions I've had with him, he hasn't offered a refund either. I almost never dismiss a game before seeing it, so I can't say I wouldn't buy another Stuntkite game, but I certainly won't pre-order anything.

Yubinshan wrote:
In closing, I thank you for making this thread, even if we feel differently regarding the seriousness of the situation. Your comments will likely be helpful, both to the community who need to make purchasing decisions, and to StuntKite to improve their practices moving forward. I appreciate you keeping a level head, and I hope you get your copy of Citrus soon.


Thank you. Having civil discussions is one of the things I most appreciate about BGG and its community. I don't have any ill will toward Eric or Stuntkite (in case that was in question); I want Stuntkite to be successful. But I also don't think sending one short email status every 3-4 months is all that unreasonable. Even Eric didn't think it was unreasonable. And he promised to do it and didn't. It's that very tiny slight, that disrespect for me as a pre-paid customer, that caused me to write this. I thought it might prod him to action, but apparently he doesn't monitor the forums for games he's trying(?) to publish.
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Brent Dickman
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These problems are exactly why I didn't pre-order Citrus, even though I really want it for my wife and I. A pre-order with the company just seemed too risky. But here's hoping that the print run is of good quality and shows up in retail.

But I do think it goes to show that publishers that eschew Kickstarter/crowdfunding can have many of the exact same problems (lack of communication, long delays, etc.), perhaps with added cash flow issues. Hope it all gets worked out in the end.
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Rik Van Horn
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I ordered Citrus in April 2014 as well. The last I heard was it was due in September, which is almost upon us.

I love the game;my original plays were at The Gathering.

I'm in NY state.
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John Sheppard
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Rokkr wrote:
I ordered Citrus in April 2014 as well. The last I heard was it was due in September, which is almost upon us.

I love the game;my original plays were at The Gathering.

I'm in NY state.


The last I heard from Eric (June 10th), Citrus was "languishing at the printers" with no ETA. Last official word on it that I can find anywhere is from January 8th when he said it would be here in "a few months".

Where did you see or hear that it was due in September?
 
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Rik Van Horn
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Bosco312 wrote:
Rokkr wrote:
I ordered Citrus in April 2014 as well. The last I heard was it was due in September, which is almost upon us.

I love the game;my original plays were at The Gathering.

I'm in NY state.


The last I heard from Eric (June 10th), Citrus was "languishing at the printers" with no ETA. Last official word on it that I can find anywhere is from January 8th when he said it would be here in "a few months".

Where did you see or hear that it was due in September?

Honestly, I'm not sure. I keep a list of Kickstarters I've backed and update arrival estimates often.
I added Citrus to the list some time ago. I have May and July dates written, then crossed out. Then I've written 9/15. I can only think I did this if I saw mention of a September date. I could be wrong though.

Edit: In this thread https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1130864/us-availability-upd... in June, the website was showing a September date.

And I used to work for a large printer and the only ways a project "languishes" are: labor problems, material problems, overscheduling and money is owed. Occasionally, there may be a quality issue as well. Or a combination of any of them. There may be more, but these are the most frequent.
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Brent Dickman
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Bosco312 wrote:
Citrus was "languishing at the printers"


Not trying to be snarky, but what does this mean??
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John Sheppard
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SaintGiles wrote:
Not trying to be snarky, but what does this mean??

That is the question I've been trying to get Eric to answer.
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Peter Johns
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I pre-ordered Citrus at BGG Con last year.

I reached out to Stuntkite Publishing through various ways and finally heard back from them on Sept 11th after contacting them through their website.

Here is what Eric told me:

As I wrote to another pre-order customer, it's been in queue at the printer for some time now, but I had been (way too) lax about poking them to get it going. Finally things are moving.

You will still be getting free shipping and the free copy of Dice Brewing for your trouble. But if you're frustrated and want to cancel the order, I understand.

If you need anything else or have any questions, let me know.

Thanks

Eric Reasoner

So still no release date

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John Sheppard
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Thanks Peter. I appreciate you sharing the info. While I'm sorry there is still no ETA for the game, I find it more frustrating that Stuntkite has sent no communication to pre-order folks about the status.
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Wee Gee
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More people should cancel their orders in hopes that it'll light a match under the guy to get things rolling. Who knows what kind of production or logistic problems will rise up in the proceeding year(s) to come. Being offered a refund now might be the only chance to recoup one's money.
 
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Tony Hodge
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I too pre-ordered from Stuntkite. I also pre-ordered Patchistory and Dice Brewing from them and got both of those.

At least you got a response from Stuntkite though. I wrote them last week inquiring about the status of Citrus and have yet to receive anything back.
 
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Rik Van Horn
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I received an email yesterday offering a DLP copy if I don't want to wait until the Feb/March estimate of delivery.
Hi, all.

Thank you for pre-ordering Citrus; some of you a veeerrrry long time ago. I apologize for massive delay. There's really no good reason or excuse for it.

While the North American version is still a bit out (yah, I know...), I've set it up so I can take care of all of you who have been waiting for quite a while.

Recently DLP did a small print run for themselves, and any of you who would like copies from this run just let me know and I'll get you taken care of.

There is no functional difference between the DLP version and the Stuntkite version. The only difference is an updated, edited rule book that makes some rules clearer, and makes some changes in terminology; ie "Plantations" to "Orchards" etc. All changes are cosmetic and will not affect the play experience.

As a reminder, all pre-orders placed before November 2014 will get their shipping reimbursed and a free copy of Dice Brewing. This is true whether you want the current printing or want to wait for the North American printing. But all pre-orders, regardless of when they were placed, can opt for the early units.

Additionally, all pre-orders, whether you take your unit now or wait, will get the new mini-expansion tiles.

Please let me know before October 30th if you would like to take your pre-order from the current run. Any pre-orders not heard from by that time will assume to be waiting for the North American print run.

Again, thank you for being excited about Citrus and apologies for the trouble.

Hope you all have a great weekend!
Follow-up!

Just FYI, we're looking at February/March for the North American version. That's relevant information that I left out of the initial e-mail, sorry!

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John Sheppard
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Rokkr wrote:
I received an email yesterday offering a DLP copy if I don't want to wait until the Feb/March estimate of delivery.

<snip>


I took him up on this offer. I have no faith in the Feb/March estimate.

Thanks for sharing the info.
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Bryson Yuzyk
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Morning folks,

I received my copy of Citrus today, with the complimentary copy of Dice Brewing.

Hope you all get yours soon.

Bryson
 
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Rik Van Horn
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I received mine a couple days ago with Dice Brewing. My copy was bashed on one corner and I believe, if I'm not wrong, we were offered a refund of the postage, which I didn't receive.

But at least I get to play the game now.
 
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David Taylor
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I am hoping to get my copy soon. I took him up on the order. Maybe it will show this coming week.
 
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