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Subject: Like twilight struggle for three players rss

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Steve Duke
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I heard the comparison more than once but this game is like playing twilight struggle with three players.

I love to give hard-core wargamers a rough time because it has blocks and cards and looks a lot like a euro. That's not a disparaging remark it just is what it is.

But when I've heard more than once that it's like twilight struggle for 3P I want to see what you thought?
 
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Wendell
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It's not a euro. It's not a wargame, either. Something in between, a political conflict simulation, perhaps.

I also don't think Churchill is much like Twilight Struggle either, except in the sense that it is a prequel to the Cold War. The other thing the two games have in common is they are both really, really good.
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Kev.
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It has some really interesting mechanics and design features.
Its a CDG strategy game with a war/political theme.

Chutes and ladders on one part of the board, and place a chit take a chit on the other. But it all seems to work well together to tie you up in knots with hard choices about immediate needs versus long term goals.
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Eddie B
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I feel it's more a Euro than a wargame.

Like Wendell said, it's a political conflict simulation.

It's unique. I would maybe say the feel is not so much like Twilight Struggle but has some similarities with games like 1960 and Founding Fathers (the Jolly Rogers game that is).
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Cole Wehrle
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It's almost nothing like Twilight Struggle. Mechanically, there's some resource allocation, some trick-taking, and some negotiation. It has a very different feel and profile than TS.

Of course, thematically, it's not so far away. It is a game with a very high level of abstraction (grand strategic in the classic sense). There are lots of games that take a similar scope. Though, I can't think of any off-hand that give this much attention to the administrative concerns of the various conferences during WWII.

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Cole Wehrle
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Also, the "wargame" vs. "euro" categorical debates are silly.

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Jim F
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
Also, the "wargame" vs. "euro" categorical debates are silly.


Donald Trump running for President silly? Or sillier?
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Steve Duke
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TRe: Like twilight struggle for three players
I think it is funny to ask hardcore Wargamers what they think about a game with cards and wooden cubes.
I play games of all types but this certainly looks like a euro with an historic backdrop. That's not a bad thing either.
I just picked up Race for the Rhine and would say the same.

The guy who compared it to " 3 player TS" had experience with both.
In retrospect I think he actually said the game would appeal to TS players who wished TS would play 3.

Just one data point as your opinion is another. I take it as a compliment.
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Cole Wehrle
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Ashiefan wrote:
Cole Wehrle wrote:
Also, the "wargame" vs. "euro" categorical debates are silly.


Donald Trump running for President silly? Or sillier?

Hmmm...now this is a hard question.
 
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Cole Wehrle
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sduke wrote:
I think it is funny to ask hardcore Wargamers what they think about a game with cards and wooden cubes.
I play games of all types but this certainly looks like a euro with an historic backdrop. That's not a bad thing either.
I just picked up Race for the Rhine and would say the same.

Right. The problem with "wargame" and "euro" is that neither term is terribly descriptive and that such terms can actually stymie discussion and inquiry (cf. debates about "true gamers" and the ugly #gamergate crowd).

I think it makes more sense to describe games in terms of their theme and their mechanics (hence Churchill as a resource allocation/trick-taking/negotiation game covering the allied conferences of ww2).

Thematically I think Churchill might be thought of as a TS for three. Despite the vast gulf in the two designs, ultimately we are talking about a political tug of war that will be familiar to TS players.
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Steve Duke
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Cole, I totally agree with what you just said.

the first thought I had when I saw the game set up--ok the second thought--was what a nice 'crossover' game it might be to take folks who primarily like Euros but also like 1960, TS, and 1989, and introduce a little more meaty stuff to them.

Folks who maybe think WW2 is stale, boring, etc , here comes a fresh approach.

IMO, the COIN games are Euro crossovers in much the same way.


Donald Trump running for President silly? Or sillier?


My new conspiracy theory is that he is secretly working for Hillary and is meant to cause as much disruption as possible to the other side.

So far, he is on course!

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Cole Wehrle
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sduke wrote:

Folks who maybe think WW2 is stale, boring, etc , here comes a fresh approach.

IMO, the COIN games are Euro crossovers in much the same way.

This is definitely the camp I find myself in. When I was growing up, I remember my uncle, a true history buff, telling me that when he was young he was just interested in the wars but as he got older he discovered that the time in-between was where the real action was. It took me awhile to come around, but I find myself now in total agreement. WW2 is likely my least favorite period and, while there are some great games--Europe Engulfed is a masterpiece--, normally the period is a huge turn off. However, the notion of a game built around the peace conferences really intrigues me. Can we get a Bretton Woods expansion?!

I like the comparison to the COIN games. They are undoubtedly conflict sims, but the focus on hearts-and-minds and their specific themes have done a lot to get gamers interested in historical games who would have been turned off by a hex-and-counter treatment of the subject.
 
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Jason Sherlock
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sduke wrote:
I heard the comparison more than once but this game is like playing twilight struggle with three players.

I love to give hard-core wargamers a rough time because it has blocks and cards and looks a lot like a euro. That's not a disparaging remark it just is what it is.

But when I've heard more than once that it's like twilight struggle for 3P I want to see what you thought?

Mark's last wargame "Fire in the Lake", also used wooden blocks, a score track and cards. I would be hard pressed to find anyone who would call it a Euro or not see it as a wargame.
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Steve Duke
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Actually, I and several of my hardcore war game friends would say we clearly see the euro elements in all of the coin games.
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Benji
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sduke wrote:
Actually, I and several of my hardcore war game friends would say we clearly see the euro elements in all of the coin games.

But that would be like calling everything that doesn't involve moving chits that represent armed people around a map a euro game.

The coin games or Churchill have about as much to do with "traditional" euros as with "traditional" wargames, and that is not much. They are something new. Fortunately. Finally.
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Steve Duke
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It is not so drastic a generalization as that.

I think some of the people who recoil when the games are cited for euro- like mechanics have not played many euros.

It goes beyond the cards and the cubes. The track that goes around the map, the various categories that are tracked to determine victory, resources, money, etc.

And the 'whack a mole' feeling each turn.

None of this is a criticism at all. The 20+ page rule books are certainly not euro like!

 
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