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Subject: Separation of church and state? rss

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Josh
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/us/texas-judge-marriage-senten...

So this is an odd little duck. The case itself is boring normal young idiot stuff. The terms of the sentance are the odd bit. 15 days in jail, or 2yrs of probation. One of the terms of the probation is marrying the woman involved in the drama which is wierd enough, but the other involves writing out a bible verse repeatedly.

This seems wierd to me, and I can only imagine the outcry if a judge were to order a Texan to write out a portion of the Koran as a part of probation. Or a 'devout' Christian to write out Atheistic tracts. What do other folks think? Perfectly reasonable? Wie4d but within pervue? Propf of long standing religious favoritism? I am a Christian myself for the record.
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Boaty McBoatface
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This has to be satire.
 
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Chad Ellis
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I'm not anything like close to an expert on how much discretion judges typically have about sentencing, but both parts seem bizarre and unconstitutional to me.

SCOTUS has taken a pretty dim view of efforts by the state to tell people who they can or can't marry, and the idea that someone is given a choice between jail time or marrying someone seems way off. Added to that, this is a ruling that forces a third party to get married in order to spare him jail time. As the bride points out, they couldn't afford for him to go to jail so this derailed their plans for a normal wedding later on.

The Bible verse seems blatant. The only argument I can imagine would be that the defendant was a self-described Christian and so the Judge chose a verse that would resonate with him -- i.e. if the defendant was Muslim he would have found a Koran verse, and if an atheist then he would have put him in jail where the degenerate belongs.
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Chad Ellis
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slatersteven wrote:
This has to be satire.


It's Texas. I know sometimes the line is hard to distinguish, but in Satire the "t" is lowercase and in the middle.
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C Bazler
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Shadrach wrote:
Perfectly reasonable? Weird but within purview? Proof of long standing religious favoritism? I am a Christian myself for the record.


None of the above. This is just batshit crazy. A flagrant violation of his individual liberties, and even infringes on his girlfriend's freedoms (what if she changes her mind and wants to back out?).

Will the judge sentence him to be someone's butler next?
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Boaty McBoatface
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cbazler wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Perfectly reasonable? Weird but within purview? Proof of long standing religious favoritism? I am a Christian myself for the record.


None of the above. This is just batshit crazy. A flagrant violation of his individual liberties, and even infringes on his girlfriend's freedoms (what if she changes her mind and wants to back out?).

Will the judge sentence him to be someone's butler next?
That is the oddest part, sentencing someone to something that requires a third party to consent to the sentence.

Also looking at other sources it all looks rather staged. I am thinking that even if this is true, there is rater more (or should that be less) here than the story in then OP suggests.
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casey r lowe
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finally a victory for family values and christianity
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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Seems like a good way to get disbarred or defrocked or whatever happens to judges.
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James Myers
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Ha, I love this part especially:

Quote:
"I was really upset. Judge Rogers stepped into my family and tried to tell them what to do without any regard for me or anything. This isn't his decision," Elizabeth's father, Kenneth Jaynes, told CNN.

"I told them they didn't have to do this, but they were afraid. They are young and they didn't know that they had any other options," he said.


How dare someone step into your family and tell your daughter who she can marry! That's your job! ahahaha. The judge has interfered w/ the natural order of things.

They don't even bother to interview her. Amazing.
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Les Marshall
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Just shows you can have whacky conservative judges as well as whacky liberal judges. At the extremes of the right and left you get a form of fascism either way. Usually such acts of compulsion from the bench are a form of equity: public service for the community or surrender of goods or money to a victim. In this instance the victim doesn't appear to figure in the order at all.

Can't imagine he'd be upheld on appeal.
 
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Josh
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We'll be living in a post-modern America when a Texas judge can not only order a couple to marry, but can insist that their wedding cake be made by a gay baker.

DUN DUN DUUUUUN
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Les Marshall
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CapNClassic wrote:
Not sure of the issue here. He gave the defendant a choice. 16 days in the county jail or marry the girlfriend he thought it was worth going to jail to protect her "honor."

You cannot complain that he forced him to do anything.


This isn't a cartoon. Real world standards apply.
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Jason Reid
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CapNClassic wrote:
Not sure of the issue here. He gave the defendant a choice. 16 days in the county jail or marry the girlfriend he thought it was worth going to jail to protect her "honor."

You cannot complain that he forced him to do anything.


Is that like when muggers give you a "choice" between a pistol-whipping and handing over your wallet? You can't complain that he forced you if you voluntarily hand it over, after all.
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Junior McSpiffy
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How is forcing him to get married a separation of church and state issue? Didn't we just discover that marriage has nothing to do with religion and it's really just a contract? Start saying that marriage has something to do with religion and... why... that just opens the door to applying religious standards to it. And that just sucks.
 
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J
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GameCrossing wrote:
How is forcing him to get married a separation of church and state issue? Didn't we just discover that marriage has nothing to do with religion and it's really just a contract? Start saying that marriage has something to do with religion and... why... that just opens the door to applying religious standards to it. And that just sucks.

The writing bible verses
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Jason Reid
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GameCrossing wrote:
How is forcing him to get married a separation of church and state issue? Didn't we just discover that marriage has nothing to do with religion and it's really just a contract? Start saying that marriage has something to do with religion and... why... that just opens the door to applying religious standards to it. And that just sucks.


The Bible-verse writing is a separation of church and state issue. The forced-marriage isn't; that's just medieval.
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Trey Chambers
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Wait, I thought Christians were being PERSECUTED? Not the other way around? Come on guys, I can't keep up with these headlines.
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Chad Ellis
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Koldfoot wrote:
A judge can most certainly require that no contact be made with a person as a condition of probation.

If that person really really really wants to have contact with the person on probation are their rights being violated? Their rights are being curtailed on a matter which they were not even in court for?


Possibly, depending on the circumstances. But can we agree that there's a slight difference between the interference of, "I'm not able to hang out with you," and "We have to get married"?
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Chad Ellis
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Since Koldie and Junior are both arguing against the idea that the forced marriage violates separation of church and state, can I check whether anyone is arguing that it does?

I know the OP's title is about church and state but I assumed that was about the Bible verses and the marriage thing was there as another bizarre thing. I and others have argued that it might be unconstitutional as an infringement of general civil liberties and freedom of association but I don't think anyone is claiming that it's necessarily a violation of the establishment clause.
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Josh
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It was about the Bible verses, from the OP.
 
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Les Marshall
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jmilum wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
How is forcing him to get married a separation of church and state issue? Didn't we just discover that marriage has nothing to do with religion and it's really just a contract? Start saying that marriage has something to do with religion and... why... that just opens the door to applying religious standards to it. And that just sucks.

The writing bible verses


You really should have given a heavy sigh with that response.
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Sounds like Smith County, TX has a certain reputation, so I'm not sure I'm entirely surprised by the judge's behavior. You'd like to think the state bar would step in and do something with respect to the judge, but it doesn't seem like they've been much interested in doing that in the past.

http://www.chron.com/news/article/Win-at-all-costs-is-Smith-...

http://corruptioncapitalusa.blogspot.com/2014/11/prosecuting...

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Junior McSpiffy
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
Since Koldie and Junior are both arguing against the idea that the forced marriage violates separation of church and state, can I check whether anyone is arguing that it does?

I know the OP's title is about church and state but I assumed that was about the Bible verses and the marriage thing was there as another bizarre thing. I and others have argued that it might be unconstitutional as an infringement of general civil liberties and freedom of association but I don't think anyone is claiming that it's necessarily a violation of the establishment clause.


I do hope you understand why some of the latest developments have me a bit reflexive,
 
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Josh
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Koldfoot wrote:
shake

You guys are saying writing "If a man digs a pit, he will fall into it."

Is somehow a civil rights violation, as opposed to writing "I will not get drunk and fight" or the appropriate section of Texas code?

Pure utter disingenuous bullshit dipshitery.

You guys have lost any ability to think coherently.

On what grounds do you propose the first to be inappropriate?

If he beat up a Muslim and was sentenced to copy some sentence from the Koran you dipshits would applaud and laugh. There is nothing wrong with a judge doing that. Some pinhead in Texas might complain and RSP would pile on the poor guy.

Ain't a one of you liberals that is intellectually honest and consistent.



You obviously didn't read the OP.
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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JoshBot wrote:
We'll be living in a post-modern America when a Texas judge can not only order a couple to marry, but can insist that their wedding cake be made by a gay baker.

DUN DUN DUUUUUN

Yawn. Wake me up when a Texas judge orders a man to marry the guy he was brawling with.
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