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Port Stanley: Battle for the Falklands» Forums » General

Subject: Argentinian OB rss

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Miquel Izquierdo Cazorla
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The argentinian OB seems very accurate, but somebody knows the exact set up of the different units at the beggining of the game?

Another question is about the two APC units and 1/11 self propelled artillery of the argentinian OB. I can't find any trace of units of this type in the Falklands. What qthey can be?.

Thanks
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Bob DeSilva
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Miguel,

I believe the APC's represent the LVTP-7 amphibious assault vehicles used buy the Argentine marines in the initial invasion, although I'm not aware that they were used after that.

Bob D.
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Bob DeSilva
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Hi Miqueal,

The designers notes for the game state that he saw pictures of Argentine M-113 APC's operating in the Falklands, and that is why he gave them to the Argies in the game. I have done a lot of research on the war, however, and as far as I know, the Argentines never had any M-113s in the Falklands. As I previously noted, however, they did use 20 LVTP-7 APC's in the initial invasion. Maybe that's what the designer was thinking about, but as far as I know, the LVTP-7's were withdrawn after the intial invasion and were not used again.

Hope that helps,

Bob D.
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Miquel Izquierdo Cazorla
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YES, you're right and i find exactlly the same answers about M-113 and LVTP 7. I have some information for the Argentine OB from the book of Max Hastings, but not in the ospreys or other books can't find a good OB for the argentinians and his set up.
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Miquel Izquierdo Cazorla
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At last i've a good argentinian source for the land forces. Is a book:

Rubén Oscar Moro: La Guerra Inaudita, Editorial Pleamar, Buenos Aires 1985.

The units present in the game are not exactlly the real units present, but... Also are necessary some changes. The argentine 3rd marine bat. is actually the 5th Marine, and the selft propelled artillery 1/11 is a battery of 155 mm SOFMA Heavy artillery. THEY CAN'T MOVE, except with helicopter.

This is a propossal for the argentine set up:

AT PORT STANLEY and 7 hex:

4 Inf. Reg. (Mt. Harriet- Two Sisters)
7 Inf. Reg. (Mt Longdon- Wireless Ridge)
6 Inf. Reg. At two hexes from Port Stanley
3 Inf. Reg. In Port Stanley and adjacent.
25 Inf. Reg. At the Airport and adjacent.
10 Recon. Bat. At 1 Hex from Port Stanley
HQ Mendez: at Port Stanley
HQ Joffre: At 1 hex of Port Stanley
2/3 and 3/3 Artillery, and 1M and 2M Artillery: At two hexes from Port Stanley.
2/601 AAA. Airport
1M and 2M AAA. In the airport and adjacent.
Exocet: at one hex from Port Stanley.
1/11 Artillery. At Sapper Hill.

AT DARWIN and 1 hex:

1/12 Inf, 1/2/12 Inf and 1/3/12 Inf.
1/3 artillery
1/601 AAA.

AT MNT KENT: 2/2/12 Inf.

AT PORT SAN CARLOS: 2/3/12 Inf.

AT SAN CARLOS (Hex 810): 2/3/3/12 Inf.

OFF MAP: 1/3/3/12 Inf.

This OB is not definitive, and i'm sure could be better...
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Greg Sarnecki
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I worked on a revised version of this game over 20 years ago now; and on and off for several years after that. I have masses of OB research and a detailed map to boot: I even researched the airframe numbers of the Argentinian and Royal Air Forces!
I'll have to dig up all my papers in the garage. Hope to publish my version here at BGG, sometime next year (2016! - it's still 2015 here) I hope, so stay posted. Just finishing off my Kingmaker remake for the moment.
Happy New Year to all!
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Robert Madison
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rhora12 wrote:

This OB is not definitive, and i'm sure could be better...

After his "we almost sank the Invincible" fantasy, I wouldn't trust Moro.
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Miquel Izquierdo Cazorla
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I agreed with your opinion. Somwhere in his book there is the descripition of an air combat with Sea Kings launching Sidewinders.. but i think he has a good acces to the argentine OB. Also valuable is the information about the rate of sorties of the AAF and othe stuff in the argentine side.

And only for curiosity. Are you absolutely sure the Invincible was not hit?...
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Greg Sarnecki
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The Argentinians desperately wanted to believe Invincible had been hit.
This raid included their last air-launched Exocet in their inventory. As much as the other four had done serious damage to the Task Force (especially with the loss of Atlantic Conveyor) they had yet to get at the carriers. And for good reason: Admiral Woodward was determined to make them very hard to get at! Barring Invincible's dash west to launch the SAS's one-way recon/raid on the mainland (accompanied IIRC by a Type 22 'goalkeeper'), the carriers were always surrounded by as many ships as could be spared, in a layered defence: Type 42s on the periphery and others in the main flotilla, with at least one or more Type 22 acting as goalkeepers, in case anything got through. This formation got less and less ideal as losses mounted and attrition took its toll. I'll have to dig up the British version of what was there on the day of the 'Invincible Raid'.
Still, there are plenty of conspiracy theory claims as to why it was hit: re-painted section of hull when it returned to UK; lower than usual CAP sortie rate following the attack; etc. Against this, it's hard to prove a negative, except that after 30+ years you would have thought at least one RN sailor would have spoken up. A lot of other seemingly more secret stuff has come to light since then after all.
The fact is, even if we assume the Invincible was hit it seemingly made no difference to operations, so the net effect in game terms is still a 'miss'.
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Miquel Izquierdo Cazorla
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My apologies about my last "evil" question. Actually I think HMS Invincible was not hit, but all the stories about this make me remember the german tales about sinking HMS Ark Royal in the first years of the Second World War... Until was sunk.
For me, the main value of Brigadier Moro's book is his insight in the Argentinian "side of the Hill".
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Dave Johannsen

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shturmovik14 wrote:
I worked on a revised version of this game over 20 years ago now; <SNIP> Hope to publish my version here at BGG, sometime next year (2016! - it's still 2015 here)

Good luck with the project. This conflict occurred shortly before I became a (US) Marine, so have always been interested.



Dave
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Greg Sarnecki
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Correction to the carrier's role as only staying out of harm's way with a goalkeeper, aside from the SAS raid on the mainland, and also the Pebble Island raid (HMS Hermes):
I have been re-reading 'Sharkey' Ward's book on the war and I just skimmed a page where he says that Invincible would sometimes go together with a 64-combo (a Type 22 and a Type 42) as protection, to patrol quite close to the Argentine coast at night (80 miles or so), I think to try to block the C-130 blockade runners.
I need to take some serious notes on this book!
Also looking into Argentine post-war reports to try and create a comprehensive list of every plane sortie from mainland Argentina, in a tabular, easy-to-read format. I have the beginnings of one for the British RAF and FAA (Fleet Air Arm) missions. Lots of research ahead still...
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Miquel Izquierdo Cazorla
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Hi. In my knoledge the already mentionad book of brigadier Moro has a very accurate account of the rate of sorties, types, etc for the FAA and Comando de Aviacion Naval.
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Greg Sarnecki
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Thanks! I'll see if I can get hold of a copy of his book then. Hopefully it'll be easier to read than the lengthy (albeit comprehensive) publications published by the Argentine Armed Forces after the war.
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Edmond
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A French wargamer is on a project depicting this war: "Iron Maggie". He is playtesting it (counters and map are near ready): http://www.strategikon.info/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2163...

He should answer to any questions in English, if not I can translate/help.

Another wargamer on that forum seems to very well understand modern naval combat.
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