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Subject: Solitaire Persuasion Attempt Rule Clarification rss

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Edington Watt
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I have been continuing to play the game solo, and want to make sure I have been doing the persuasion attempts correctly.

I am going to assume for the purposes of my example, that the original AH solitaire rule is present which says: "Neutrals will use counter-bribes only to protect their own Senators" (16.42). All other rule mentions come from the VG version.

Example 1:

Senator A (who can achieve the highest Base Number) of the persuading faction has an Influence of 18 and an Oratory of 3 plus a Personal Treasury of 2.

Senator B (Most Available Senator) is the target Senator in a Faction and has a Loyalty of 7, a Personal Treasury of 2 and backed up with a Faction Treasury of 5.

As per (4.04.2) Neutrals will always attempt to persuade the Most Available Senator. As such, Senator A will go ahead and make a persuasion with a Base Number of 14 (18 Influence plus 3 Oratory minus Loyalty of 7). This Base Number is then modified by the target Senator's extra Loyalty modifications to bring it down to a Base Number of 5 (14 - 7 for Aligned Loyalty - 2 for target Senator's Personal Treasury = 5).

The final modifications to the Base Number is the persuading Senator's Personal Treasury as a bribe and the defending faction's counter-bribe.

According to 4.04.2, the Senator will use a bribe if "taking consideration of all Neutral Counter-Bribe possibilities, they can raise the Base Number to >= 7." As Senator A only has 2 Talents, he will not bribe because if he uses all 2 Talents (bringing the Base Number to 7) the defending Faction can choose to counter bribe with at least 1 Talent (it has 5) which will bring it to below 7. Even though he does not bribe, he will still persuade. Is this correct?

So if this is correct, then the persuading Senator will not use a bribe and the Base Number is 5. As 4.04.21 states, "If able, Neutrals will use Counter-Bribes to lower the Base Number to exactly 4." So in this case the defending faction will subtract one from the faction treasury, place it on the defended Senator to adjust the Base Number to a final value of 4.

So all in all, the end result is that the defending faction is forced to protect its Senator by counter-bribing and moving 1 Talent from the faction treasury to the target Senator. Does all of this seem correct?

Of course, two dice are rolled to see if the persuasion is successful.

Example 2:

This example starts off with the exact same Senators and values except Senator B (persuading Senator) has a Personal Treasury of 8 Talents instead of 2.

Following the same logic as before, the Base Number is 5 prior to the bribe and counter-bribe modifications. Now, in this case the persuading Senator A will bribe as adding at least 7 Talents (he has 8) for the bribe will guarantee a Base Number of 7 as a counter-bribe of all 5 Talents from the defending Faction's treasury will still result in the Base Number totaling 7 (Base Number 5 + Bribe of 7 - counter-bribe of 5 = 7). Does this seem correct so far?

Now we know he will bribe, so this is where I am not sure on the amount of the bribe. According to the rule, "If bribes are possible, Neutrals will raise the Base Number as high as possible up to a maximum of 9."

So is the bribe amount (to begin with at least) 4 Talents to bring the Base Number to 9, or is the bribe amount a full 8 Talents to bring the Base Number to 13 (assuming that the counter-bribe of 5 Talents will be there)?

If it is the former, then the Base Number is modified to 9 by a 4 Talent bribe, and then the Base Number is further modified by a counter-bribe by the defending faction using all of its 5 Talents to bring the Base Number back to 4. However, the persuading Senator still has 4 Talents left which he will throw all in to take the final modified Base Number to 8. The target Senator would end up with a total of 13 Talents.

This does not seem correct. If, however, in the former, the defending faction will only counter-bribe if the final Base Number can be brought to 4 then it seems to make more sense. This is because the defending faction will not counter-bribe and leave the Base Number at 9 because if it did try to bring it down to 4, there are still funds left for a bribe to bring it away from 4 up to 8. In summary, the bribe of 4 would not be counter-bribed and the target Senator would end up with 4 Talents.

If the later, then the defending faction does not counter-bribe as using all its 5 Talents will not reduce the Base Number down to 4, it does not counter bribe and the final Base Number is 13 (which seems to contradict the rule of the Base Number being modified over 9). The target Senator would up with 8 Talents.

I hope this all makes sense. Any clarification would be a great help.

Thanks,

--DarkDream

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The first example looks well done to me.

In the second example, the way I have played it is that the persuader brings the base number to 9; the target sees that he cannot achieve his desired final base number and so does not counter. The roll follows immediately after that. Plausible?
 
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Matthew T
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You... you play RoR SOLO.

Do I have a different inferior copy of the game to you? I genuinely am curious what pleasure you get from it...
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I don't know what Edington would say, but it can be kind of an amusing challenge because the Neutral non-players are kind of self-seeking jerks who rarely do anything to help the cause of Rome's survival. Managing to surmount this can be fun sometimes. Actually I prefer it with a second player, which is a 1 v. 1 v. 3 situation.
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Atanasije Stojkovic
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DarkDream wrote:
I have been continuing to play the game solo, and want to make sure I have been doing the persuasion attempts correctly.

I am going to assume for the purposes of my example, that the original AH solitaire rule is present which says: "Neutrals will use counter-bribes only to protect their own Senators" (16.42). All other rule mentions come from the VG version.

Example 1:

Senator A (who can achieve the highest Base Number) of the persuading faction has an Influence of 18 and an Oratory of 3 plus a Personal Treasury of 2.

Senator B (Most Available Senator) is the target Senator in a Faction and has a Loyalty of 7, a Personal Treasury of 2 and backed up with a Faction Treasury of 5.

As per (4.04.2) Neutrals will always attempt to persuade the Most Available Senator. As such, Senator A will go ahead and make a persuasion with a Base Number of 14 (18 Influence plus 3 Oratory minus Loyalty of 7). This Base Number is then modified by the target Senator's extra Loyalty modifications to bring it down to a Base Number of 5 (14 - 7 for Aligned Loyalty - 2 for target Senator's Personal Treasury = 5).

The final modifications to the Base Number is the persuading Senator's Personal Treasury as a bribe and the defending faction's counter-bribe.

According to 4.04.2, the Senator will use a bribe if "taking consideration of all Neutral Counter-Bribe possibilities, they can raise the Base Number to >= 7." As Senator A only has 2 Talents, he will not bribe because if he uses all 2 Talents (bringing the Base Number to 7) the defending Faction can choose to counter bribe with at least 1 Talent (it has 5) which will bring it to below 7. Even though he does not bribe, he will still persuade. Is this correct?

So if this is correct, then the persuading Senator will not use a bribe and the Base Number is 5. As 4.04.21 states, "If able, Neutrals will use Counter-Bribes to lower the Base Number to exactly 4." So in this case the defending faction will subtract one from the faction treasury, place it on the defended Senator to adjust the Base Number to a final value of 4.

So all in all, the end result is that the defending faction is forced to protect its Senator by counter-bribing and moving 1 Talent from the faction treasury to the target Senator. Does all of this seem correct?

Of course, two dice are rolled to see if the persuasion is successful.


Is the defender the one that throws the counter-bid the first? I thought it went clockwise around the table, after the Faction whose Senator's making the Persuasion Attempt?
 
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Edington Watt
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heli wrote:

In the second example, the way I have played it is that the persuader brings the base number to 9; the target sees that he cannot achieve his desired final base number and so does not counter. The roll follows immediately after that. Plausible?


Ok. I think this makes the most sense. So in the second example I gave, you are choosing the one where the target will only counter-bribe if the final Base Number can be brought to 4. The reasoning behind this interpretation of the rule is that a Faction will not wager money to save a Senator from persuasion if after dolling out as much money as it can its chance of saving the Senator is low. Essentially the faction would be throwing the money away as most likely the Senator will be persuaded and the end result is the Faction treasury is reduced with no upside.

Thanks again for your input. It has greatly clarified things for me.

--DarkDream
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Edington Watt
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Rolypoly890 wrote:
You... you play RoR SOLO.

Do I have a different inferior copy of the game to you? I genuinely am curious what pleasure you get from it...


Hi Matthew. As to why I am playing it, is that I have had this game for years and have never had the time to crack it open. I love Roman History and this game has a great appeal for me. I don't have other players around who would likely be interested in playing such a game (they are more into family games). As such I am just really curious and want to play it properly to get a general idea if I like it or not.

Right now I can't really decide as I am still trying to play it properly.

--DarkDream
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Edington Watt
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Sargeras777 wrote:

Is the defender the one that throws the counter-bid the first? I thought it went clockwise around the table, after the Faction whose Senator's making the Persuasion Attempt?


In the original Avalon Hill Solitaire rules, it has this: "Neutrals will use counter-bribes only to protect their own Senators" (16.42).

In the Valley Games edition, this line is left out (most likely an accidental omission) which is discussed in another thread on this forum.

I am assuming that this rule was left out, so I am only going to play where the Faction of the target Senator will be the only one to use its Treasury to counter-bribe.

It is fairly clear to me you must have this rule as if you go clockwise taking into account all of the Neutral Factions for counter-bribes a Senator will very likely never be persuaded.

--DarkDream
 
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Scott Cantor
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Rolypoly890 wrote:
You... you play RoR SOLO.

Do I have a different inferior copy of the game to you? I genuinely am curious what pleasure you get from it...


The chance to actually play the game even in a very limited form? When hardly anybody is willing to play it, you make do.

It's also a very good way to learn the mechanics of the game, Senate phase excluded.
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Jim Adams
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Here's a related question, rather than starting a new thread...

When the rule states that "a neutral will always use the Senator who can achieve the highest Base Number while using the least Bribe money as his Persuading Senator," does that mean that a broke senator with high INF and ORA will be preferred to a wealthy one with lower scores? Even if the broke one can't make a Base of 7? Which is more important, the highest number, or the least spent?
 
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Their goal, I believe, was to achieve the highest persuasion number, but they're saying if they're equal, choose the option that involves spending less money. So I add everything up and see who has the most value. Only if there's a tie do I look at money.
 
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Jim Adams
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I agree. Here's another I came across in my current solo game:

In a Crisis, only the highest Military rated Senators can become Consul. So, if say, the highest rated Senator in the Ruling Coalition is ineligible, and the next highest Military rating is outside the Coalition, do you go outside the Coalition, or settle for the next highest Military within the Coalition?
 
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I read the Crisis Offices section as stating who is eligible overall, but the consul offices are still picked in the spoils process. If a neutral picks it, it has to be their highest military. If a player picks it, he can choose between his highest military or someone else's highest military.
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Jon Horne
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heli wrote:
I read the Crisis Offices section as stating who is eligible overall, but the consul offices are still picked in the spoils process. If a neutral picks it, it has to be their highest military. If a player picks it, he can choose between his highest military or someone else's highest military.

That's always been my interpretation, as well.
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Thanks.

I suppose there's the potential for a problem if no player is in the coalition and very few, maybe only one, neutral player is, and their highest military guy's already Dictator or Master of Horse. What then should be done? Perhaps at that point the Dominant Player simply decides.
 
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