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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/26/opinion/sunday/ross-doutha...


Quote:

That’s why Planned Parenthood’s apologists have fallen back on complaints about “deceptive editing” (though full videos were released in both cases), or else simply asked people to look away. And it’s why many of my colleagues in the press seem uncomfortable reporting on the actual content of the videos.

Because dwelling on that content gets you uncomfortably close to Selzer’s tipping point — that moment when you start pondering the possibility that an institution at the heart of respectable liberal society is dedicated to a practice that deserves to be called barbarism.

That’s a hard thing to accept. It’s part of why so many people hover in the conflicted borderlands of the pro-choice side. They don’t like abortion, they think its critics have a point … but to actively join our side would require passing too comprehensive a judgment on their coalition, their country, their friends, their very selves.

This reluctance is a human universal. It’s why white Southerners long preferred Lost Cause mythology to slaveholding realities. It’s why patriotic Americans rarely want to dwell too long on My Lai or Manzanar or Nagasaki. It’s why, like many conservatives, I was loath to engage with the reality of torture in Bush-era interrogation programs.

But the reluctance to look closely doesn’t change the truth of what there is to see. Those were dead human beings on Richard Selzer’s street 40 years ago, and these are dead human beings being discussed on video today: Human beings that the nice, idealistic medical personnel at Planned Parenthood have spent their careers crushing, evacuating, and carving up for parts.

The pro-life sting was sweeping; there are reportedly 10 videos to go. You can turn away. But there will be plenty of chances to look, to see, to know.
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Mike Stiles
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Article based on faulty premise comes to faulty conclusions.

Quote:
that moment when you start pondering the possibility that an institution at the heart of respectable liberal society is dedicated to a practice that deserves to be called barbarism

...according to...whom?

I certainly don't see anything that "deserves to be called barbarism" in those videos. Nor have I actually talked with anyone who did. The most negative reactions I've seen amount to the reactions people have of doctors, EMTs, etc 'talking shop' (everybody has a basic idea "how sausage is made", after all, but nobody really likes going over the details in depth).

Aside, anyway, from my conservative-leaning friends that were already opposed to abortion (in at least one person's instance, in a 'no matter what under any circumstances' extreme).

Do you really think the videos actually changed anyone's opinion?
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Trey Stone
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XanderF wrote:


I certainly don't see anything that "deserves to be called barbarism" in those videos. Nor have I actually talked with anyone who did.

Of course you don't. And according to the writer, that would be a part of the problem. Lots of others were in denial for the longest time about those other points of horror in history, too. Some still are.

Quote:

Do you really think the videos actually changed anyone's opinion?

Yes.

Helped to change mine. And I doubt I am alone. Statistically unlikely, for sure.
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tstone wrote:
Quote:

Do you really think the videos actually changed anyone's opinion?

Yes.

Helped to change mine. And I doubt I am alone. Statistically unlikely, for sure.

Really?

You were pro-choice BEFORE these videos, and now you find your beliefs so shaken that you've changed sides? Really?

Sorry, but I've been here long enough to have seen your posts on the topic in the past, so forgive me if I call shens...
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XanderF wrote:


Sorry, but I've been here long enough to have seen your posts on the topic in the past, so forgive me if I call shens...

Really? I demand that you, right now, produce one of these posts "on the topic", before this scandal, that shows me to be "pro-life".

I'll wait...
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tstone wrote:
Because dwelling on that content gets you uncomfortably close to Selzer’s tipping point — that moment when you start pondering the possibility that an institution at the heart of respectable liberal society is dedicated to a practice that deserves to be called barbarism.
as if prohibiting access to safe and legal abortion wasnt more barbaric~
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Drew1365 wrote:
Changed this guy's mind.

Quote:
All this was happening in the 1980s, which was a particularly tense time in the abortion debate. Americans were at each other’s throats. Protesters picketed the offices of abortion providers. Clinics were bombed or set on fire. Doctors who performed abortions were being threatened. The Moral Majority, Operation Rescue, and the Republican Party seemed an intolerant lot. I couldn’t imagine siding with them, so I lined up on the pro-choice side.

I arrived there for a simple reason: Because I’m a man. Many will say that this is not a very good reason, but it is my reason. Lacking the ability to get pregnant, and thus spared what has been for women friends of mine the anguishing decision of whether to stay pregnant, I’ve remained on the sidelines and deferred to the other half of the population.

Over time, I made refinements—going along with waiting periods and parental notification laws at the state level, and coming out against the barbaric practice known as partial birth abortion.

As I’ve only realized lately, to be a man, and to declare yourself pro-choice, is to proclaim your neutrality. And, as I’ve only recently been willing to admit, even to myself, that’s another name for “wimping out.”

At least that’s how my wife sees it. She’s pro-life, and so she’s been tearing into me every time a new video is released. She’s not buying my argument that, as a man, I have to defer to women and trust them to make their own choices about what to do with their bodies. To her, that’s ridiculous—and cowardly.

“You can’t stand on the sidelines, especially now that you’ve seen these videos,” she told me recently. “That’s bullshit! These are babies that are being killed. Millions of them. And you need to use your voice to protect them. That’s what a man does. He protects children—his own children, and other children. That’s what it means to be a man.”

I didn’t like the scolding, but I needed to hear it. For those of us who are pro-choice, the Planned Parenthood videos are a game changer.

Way to leave off the punchline

Quote:
As to whether that means I’ll change my view, I’m not sure. I’m on the bubble. Ask me in a few weeks, after the release of more videos.
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its funny that the guy worries about looking like a wimp but then readily admits to getting bullied into changing his opinion by his wife~
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single sentences wrote:
its funny that the guy worries about looking like a wimp but then readily admits to getting bullied into changing his opinion by his wife~

That was my thought too. Videos aren't changing his position, nagging is.
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tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:


Sorry, but I've been here long enough to have seen your posts on the topic in the past, so forgive me if I call shens...

Really? I demand that you, right now, produce one of these posts "on the topic", before this scandal, that shows me to be "pro-life".

I'll wait...

*Yawn*

That wasn't even hard. What were you saying?
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Not likely to change many minds, especially those of women
 
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It's amusing to see how coddled and insulated some people are.

Of course abortion is unpleasent, of course it involves things that are shaped like us. Duh. You know what else does? Squalor. Children without food, medical care, children bought and sold, abandoned, roving in parentless packs, or packed into some orwellean government run barracks, underfunded by those same people who would do away with abortion. Women in hospitals bleeding out, poisoned, or septic.

Those truths are just as uncomfortable as abortion, even moreso to some. The only differeance is one is thrown in our faces due to some misguided manipulative videos, the other is a distant memory, or something that happens in other countries.

I've never seen anyone offer a better solution on a societal level. I fully understand not personally choosing abortion but that isn't the issue. Find a better *societal* policy, and 'there must be a better way' with copious handwringing doesn't count.
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XanderF wrote:
tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:


Sorry, but I've been here long enough to have seen your posts on the topic in the past, so forgive me if I call shens...

Really? I demand that you, right now, produce one of these posts "on the topic", before this scandal, that shows me to be "pro-life".

I'll wait...

*Yawn*

That wasn't even hard. What were you saying?

He was saying that liberals and their crazy liberalling made him turn conservative and he saw the light and etc
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XanderF wrote:
tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:


Sorry, but I've been here long enough to have seen your posts on the topic in the past, so forgive me if I call shens...

Really? I demand that you, right now, produce one of these posts "on the topic", before this scandal, that shows me to be "pro-life".

I'll wait...

*Yawn*

That wasn't even hard. What were you saying?

I said find something before the scandal. This is after. In fact, the scandal is a key reason for the change. A change you contend here won't happen. This, in fact, was where I announced said change "reluctantly, from pro choice to pro life." If gotcha is your game...you are no playa.
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Shadrach wrote:
It's amusing to see how coddled and insulated some people are.

Of course abortion is unpleasent, of course it involves things that are shaped like us. Duh. You know what else does? Squalor. Children without food, medical care, children bought and sold, abandoned, roving in parentless packs, or packed into some orwellean government run barracks, underfunded by those same people who would do away with abortion. Women in hospitals bleeding out, poisoned, or septic.

Those truths are just as uncomfortable as abortion, even moreso to some. The only differeance is one is thrown in our faces due to some misguided manipulative videos, the other is a distant memory, or something that happens in other countries.

I've never seen anyone offer a better solution on a societal level. I fully understand not personally choosing abortion but that isn't the issue. Find a better *societal* policy, and 'there must be a better way' with copious handwringing doesn't count.

Just a few changes, this is apologetics for another peculiar institution, slavery.
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tstone wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
It's amusing to see how coddled and insulated some people are.

Of course abortion is unpleasent, of course it involves things that are shaped like us. Duh. You know what else does? Squalor. Children without food, medical care, children bought and sold, abandoned, roving in parentless packs, or packed into some orwellean government run barracks, underfunded by those same people who would do away with abortion. Women in hospitals bleeding out, poisoned, or septic.

Those truths are just as uncomfortable as abortion, even moreso to some. The only differeance is one is thrown in our faces due to some misguided manipulative videos, the other is a distant memory, or something that happens in other countries.

I've never seen anyone offer a better solution on a societal level. I fully understand not personally choosing abortion but that isn't the issue. Find a better *societal* policy, and 'there must be a better way' with copious handwringing doesn't count.

Just a few changes, this is apologetics for another peculiar institution, slavery.

Firstly you didn't give a solution, so you're just a handwringing tool

Secondly there were plenty of solutions to slavery, see point one.

Thirdly you're a liar. The first PP video was released July 14th 2015. So unless you intented time travel or were privy to the video's contents before its release it could not have influenced you on July 6th.
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Shadrach wrote:
tstone wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
It's amusing to see how coddled and insulated some people are.

Of course abortion is unpleasent, of course it involves things that are shaped like us. Duh. You know what else does? Squalor. Children without food, medical care, children bought and sold, abandoned, roving in parentless packs, or packed into some orwellean government run barracks, underfunded by those same people who would do away with abortion. Women in hospitals bleeding out, poisoned, or septic.

Those truths are just as uncomfortable as abortion, even moreso to some. The only differeance is one is thrown in our faces due to some misguided manipulative videos, the other is a distant memory, or something that happens in other countries.

I've never seen anyone offer a better solution on a societal level. I fully understand not personally choosing abortion but that isn't the issue. Find a better *societal* policy, and 'there must be a better way' with copious handwringing doesn't count.


Just a few changes, this is apologetics for another peculiar institution, slavery.

Firstly you didn't give a solution, so you're just a handwringing tool

Secondly there were plenty of solutions to slavery, see point one.

Thirdly you're a liar. The first PP video was released July 14th 2015. So unless you intented time travel or were privy to the video's contents before its release it could not have influenced you on July 6th.

So where is all this hot and heavy pro life earlier X an alluded to? Answer, there isn't any. Most of my political awareness, I've been pro choice. My change to pro life, very rcent, vs pro choice for decades.

And slavery apologists I'm sure wrung their hands over lack of solutions, too. Truth is, they didn't want one. I'm not convinced you do, either.

 
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tstone wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
tstone wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
It's amusing to see how coddled and insulated some people are.

Of course abortion is unpleasent, of course it involves things that are shaped like us. Duh. You know what else does? Squalor. Children without food, medical care, children bought and sold, abandoned, roving in parentless packs, or packed into some orwellean government run barracks, underfunded by those same people who would do away with abortion. Women in hospitals bleeding out, poisoned, or septic.

Those truths are just as uncomfortable as abortion, even moreso to some. The only differeance is one is thrown in our faces due to some misguided manipulative videos, the other is a distant memory, or something that happens in other countries.

I've never seen anyone offer a better solution on a societal level. I fully understand not personally choosing abortion but that isn't the issue. Find a better *societal* policy, and 'there must be a better way' with copious handwringing doesn't count.


Just a few changes, this is apologetics for another peculiar institution, slavery.

Firstly you didn't give a solution, so you're just a handwringing tool

Secondly there were plenty of solutions to slavery, see point one.

Thirdly you're a liar. The first PP video was released July 14th 2015. So unless you intented time travel or were privy to the video's contents before its release it could not have influenced you on July 6th.

So where is all this hot and heavy pro life earlier X an alluded to? Answer, there isn't any. Most of my political awareness, I've been pro choice. My change to pro life, very rcent, vs pro choice for decades.

And slavery apologists I'm sure wrung their hands over lack of solutions, too. Truth is, they didn't want one. I'm not convinced you do, either.


So, what is your solution?

And:

tstone wrote:

Really? I demand that you, right now, produce one of these posts "on the topic", before this scandal, that shows me to be "pro-life".

I'll wait...

That was your demand, and a post was shown that was 8 days before the scandal.

And your reply to his showing you the post?

tstone wrote:

I said find something before the scandal. This is after. In fact, the scandal is a key reason for the change.

Which, as I've shown, is a bare faced lie.

As for 'hot and heavy' you didn't mention that until confronted with your lie.
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tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:
tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:


Sorry, but I've been here long enough to have seen your posts on the topic in the past, so forgive me if I call shens...

Really? I demand that you, right now, produce one of these posts "on the topic", before this scandal, that shows me to be "pro-life".

I'll wait...

*Yawn*

That wasn't even hard. What were you saying?

I said find something before the scandal. This is after. In fact, the scandal is a key reason for the change. A change you contend here won't happen. This, in fact, was where I announced said change "reluctantly, from pro choice to pro life." If gotcha is your game...you are no playa.

Seeing as how the quoted post was from July 6, and the first 'Planned Parenthood Exposed' video released by the Center for Medical Progress was not until July 15 (I simply pulled your most recent post on the topic before the video came out), I have to wonder how you managed to pull off 'knowing about the scandal' weeks before the very first news about it was released.

Can you get me next week's lotto numbers, too?
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tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:
tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:


Sorry, but I've been here long enough to have seen your posts on the topic in the past, so forgive me if I call shens...

Really? I demand that you, right now, produce one of these posts "on the topic", before this scandal, that shows me to be "pro-life".

I'll wait...

*Yawn*

That wasn't even hard. What were you saying?

I said find something before the scandal. This is after. In fact, the scandal is a key reason for the change. A change you contend here won't happen. This, in fact, was where I announced said change "reluctantly, from pro choice to pro life." If gotcha is your game...you are no playa.

What did you imagine happened during an abortion before your change of heart? What made you reluctantly pro choice in the first place? What was it about this specifically that made this switch? Did you misjudge what was actually, necessarily going on?
 
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Doc Mage wrote:
tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:
tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:


Sorry, but I've been here long enough to have seen your posts on the topic in the past, so forgive me if I call shens...

Really? I demand that you, right now, produce one of these posts "on the topic", before this scandal, that shows me to be "pro-life".

I'll wait...

*Yawn*

That wasn't even hard. What were you saying?

I said find something before the scandal. This is after. In fact, the scandal is a key reason for the change. A change you contend here won't happen. This, in fact, was where I announced said change "reluctantly, from pro choice to pro life." If gotcha is your game...you are no playa.

What did you imagine happened during an abortion before your change of heart? What made you reluctantly pro choice in the first place? What was it about this specifically that made this switch? Did you misjudge what was actually, necessarily going on?

Like any other horror. Not thinking deeply about it. Out of sight, out of mind. I was never fervently pro choice, but seeing the reality, further, the casualness, the callousness, hammered home the reality of the spiritual damage this institution wreaks.
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tstone wrote:
Doc Mage wrote:
tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:
tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:


Sorry, but I've been here long enough to have seen your posts on the topic in the past, so forgive me if I call shens...

Really? I demand that you, right now, produce one of these posts "on the topic", before this scandal, that shows me to be "pro-life".

I'll wait...

*Yawn*

That wasn't even hard. What were you saying?

I said find something before the scandal. This is after. In fact, the scandal is a key reason for the change. A change you contend here won't happen. This, in fact, was where I announced said change "reluctantly, from pro choice to pro life." If gotcha is your game...you are no playa.

What did you imagine happened during an abortion before your change of heart? What made you reluctantly pro choice in the first place? What was it about this specifically that made this switch? Did you misjudge what was actually, necessarily going on?

Like any other horror. Not thinking deeply about it. Out of sight, out of mind. I was never fervently pro choice, but seeing the reality, further, the casualness, the callousness, hammered home the reality of the spiritual damage this institution wreaks.

Well I hope you start thinking deeply about it, and consider all perspectives. I hope you consider the spiritual damage that comes from other paths, including adoption and reluctant parenting. I hope you consider the spiritual and physical damage that comes from denying medically necessary abortions. I hope you consider that the casualness may derive more from an attitude of compassion towards an underserved population of women and an effort not to exacerbate their situation.

You've started from a superficial understanding. I assure you, these videos, think of them what you will, do not portray the full reality of abortion, in any of it's physical, biomedical, social, or personal dimensions. I won't hold it against you that you are affected by the showmanship there. Don't assume that your reaction to these videos substitutes for a thorough critical analysis.

Also for God's sake don't just talk to a bunch of men on the internet about this. Ask the women in your life what they think.
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Shadrach wrote:
tstone wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
tstone wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
It's amusing to see how coddled and insulated some people are.

Of course abortion is unpleasent, of course it involves things that are shaped like us. Duh. You know what else does? Squalor. Children without food, medical care, children bought and sold, abandoned, roving in parentless packs, or packed into some orwellean government run barracks, underfunded by those same people who would do away with abortion. Women in hospitals bleeding out, poisoned, or septic.

Those truths are just as uncomfortable as abortion, even moreso to some. The only differeance is one is thrown in our faces due to some misguided manipulative videos, the other is a distant memory, or something that happens in other countries.

I've never seen anyone offer a better solution on a societal level. I fully understand not personally choosing abortion but that isn't the issue. Find a better *societal* policy, and 'there must be a better way' with copious handwringing doesn't count.


Just a few changes, this is apologetics for another peculiar institution, slavery.

Firstly you didn't give a solution, so you're just a handwringing tool

Secondly there were plenty of solutions to slavery, see point one.

Thirdly you're a liar. The first PP video was released July 14th 2015. So unless you intented time travel or were privy to the video's contents before its release it could not have influenced you on July 6th.

So where is all this hot and heavy pro life earlier X an alluded to? Answer, there isn't any. Most of my political awareness, I've been pro choice. My change to pro life, very rcent, vs pro choice for decades.

And slavery apologists I'm sure wrung their hands over lack of solutions, too. Truth is, they didn't want one. I'm not convinced you do, either.


So, what is your solution?

And:

tstone wrote:

Really? I demand that you, right now, produce one of these posts "on the topic", before this scandal, that shows me to be "pro-life".

I'll wait...

That was your demand, and a post was shown that was 8 days before the scandal.

And your reply to his showing you the post?

tstone wrote:

I said find something before the scandal. This is after. In fact, the scandal is a key reason for the change.

Which, as I've shown, is a bare faced lie.

As for 'hot and heavy' you didn't mention that until confronted with your lie.

Zane said that he has been around a "long time and is familiar with your posting on the issue to date." The one post he can reference of me posting a pro life position is a week before the public release of the first vid, mainly to illustrate how it is possible to change one's mind on the iszues. Now, you want to go on about this? I know all that nonexistent hand wringing is keeping you from your appointed tackling rounds.
 
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Doc Mage wrote:
tstone wrote:
Doc Mage wrote:
tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:
tstone wrote:
XanderF wrote:


Sorry, but I've been here long enough to have seen your posts on the topic in the past, so forgive me if I call shens...

Really? I demand that you, right now, produce one of these posts "on the topic", before this scandal, that shows me to be "pro-life".

I'll wait...

*Yawn*

That wasn't even hard. What were you saying?

I said find something before the scandal. This is after. In fact, the scandal is a key reason for the change. A change you contend here won't happen. This, in fact, was where I announced said change "reluctantly, from pro choice to pro life." If gotcha is your game...you are no playa.

What did you imagine happened during an abortion before your change of heart? What made you reluctantly pro choice in the first place? What was it about this specifically that made this switch? Did you misjudge what was actually, necessarily going on?

Like any other horror. Not thinking deeply about it. Out of sight, out of mind. I was never fervently pro choice, but seeing the reality, further, the casualness, the callousness, hammered home the reality of the spiritual damage this institution wreaks.

Well I hope you start thinking deeply about it, and consider all perspectives. I hope you consider the spiritual damage that comes from other paths, including adoption and reluctant parenting. I hope you consider the spiritual and physical damage that comes from denying medically necessary abortions. I hope you consider that the casualness may derive more from an attitude of compassion towards an underserved population of women and an effort not to exacerbate their situation.

You've started from a superficial understanding. I assure you, these videos, think of them what you will, do not portray the full reality of abortion, in any of it's physical, biomedical, social, or personal dimensions. I won't hold it against you that you are affected by the showmanship there. Don't assume that your reaction to these videos substitutes for a thorough critical analysis.

Also for God's sake don't just talk to a bunch of men on the internet about this. Ask the women in your life what they think.

Already have. You talk like pro choice is the default position of women and those who think deeply about this issue. It is not.

I don't agree that my understanding of the issue was "superficial", btw. I say it was more abstract. I thought about it in abstract terms rather than the real costs.

Lately, I've been tabulating the costs. The one thing Shadrach has said right in his stellar career of wrongness is that the issue IS complicated. But then, so are many of the horrors we have dealt with.

And the status quo is not acceptable, as the damage, culturally and spiritually, is clear. These vids help underline that.
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