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Subject: Map question to Imperial players rss

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Eric LAURENT
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Hello,

I am about to play my fist game as an imperial player. Here come 2 questions :

Do you reveal the entire map to rebel players or do you keep tiles with doors hidden (for a greater mystery like in RPG games)?

Do you tell players how many turns they have to succeed ?
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Jefferson Krogh
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moavoamoatu wrote:
Hello,

I am about to play my fist game as an imperial player. Here come 2 questions :

Do you reveal the entire map to rebel players or do you keep tiles with doors hidden (for a greater mystery like in RPG games)?

Do you tell players how many turns they have to succeed ?

You definitely reveal the entire map.

For many missions, you will tell them how many turns they have. Others, you won't. You're supposed to tell them all the information in the mission introduction (I'm drawing a blank on that section is actually called, despite having run the game like 20 times now).
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Scott Forster
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Entire map is public.

If the turns are in the initial info, you tell them. Read everything in the first section (not just the boxed read-aloud text). This will usually include the Rebel objective, number of turns, special rules for terminals and doors. That's all public knowledge. The only things you keep secret are your Reserved groups, your Optional groups (though these are both face-down cards, so the Rebels will have some idea), your deployment zones, and the text/rules of the various events.
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Pasi Ojala
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Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
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You don't of course literally show the map from the campaign book, because the deployment points are hidden information. You still read when deployment points activate and/or deactivate, but do not indicate their locations.

See examples of mission briefings from for example Everyone Wants to Be a Hero - SWIA007 or other Play by Forum campaigns.

Also read carefully the second page of the campaign book, both by yourself and to the rebel players, or let them read it themselves. There is nothing secret in the campaign book before page 4.
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Eric LAURENT
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Thanks guys, that's really clear...no suspense at all then (it seems that the rebels stole the Death Star blueprints )
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Andrea Bellettini
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moavoamoatu wrote:
Thanks guys, that's really clear...no suspense at all then (it seems that the rebels stole the Death Star blueprints )

No suspence? I don't think so! Having an hand of groups plus secret deployment zone just add a lot of surprise to the rebels.
Add conditions triggers from the scenarios and imperial objectives cards i think imperial player has a lot of tools to suprise the rebels even in the first scenario "aftermath".


Bye!
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Donny Behne
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They will know the layout but quite often you will not add minis to the map until a door opens revealing the area. It's quite suspenseful, especially when most triggers offer you multiple options on how to proceed.
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Waspinator
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I second that you should read the first couple pages of the campaign books. Those pages make it clear that a lot of information IS public. You're supposed to read all mission introduction rules text out loud and when an event triggers, those rules should be read out loud too.
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Eric LAURENT
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kelann08 wrote:
They will know the layout but quite often you will not add minis to the map until a door opens revealing the area. It's quite suspenseful, especially when most triggers offer you multiple options on how to proceed.

That seems to be a great option.
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Andreas Hunziker
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moavoamoatu wrote:
Hello,

I am about to play my fist game as an imperial player. Here come 2 questions :

Do you reveal the entire map to rebel players or do you keep tiles with doors hidden (for a greater mystery like in RPG games)?

Do you tell players how many turns they have to succeed ?

This is exactly the way we played it. One of the rebel players missed the exploration aspect in IA compared to Descent (which I do not know, actually) and so we decided to house-rule and play IA with exploration, meaning that the players only get to see what their avatars on the board actually have in their LOS. We knew that this could bring problems, but went that route anyway.

As the IP I tried to give all necessary information (like, the number of turns, the victory conditions, basic floor plan of an known ship class), since the rebel HQ intelligence briefing should have had at least SOME info tidbits….

This actually also increases the time needed to prepare the mission for the IP, and it brings the burden of maintaining the scenario-balance with it (that’s where I was not too successful, I think, since I was way to busy to keep my head over the water and had not much free brain-capacity to also look out for them…).

Here as an example is how the mission “Captured” developed:







They made it out in time, btw.

The campaign log probably shows the increased difficulty level, and it was not easy for the rebel players to decide for a strategy in some missions, since they did not know where some of the mission goals actually were to find. But I read that complaint also form plays with all the infos on the table.



After the final mission we discussed the use of “exploration” in a possible future campaign, and the bias of the group was more in favor for it than against it. We will see….

So I would say, it is up to you to bring more roleplay into the game (more work for you), or play it by the book.
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Eric LAURENT
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Thanks Andreas, that's the way I wanted to play it (and I did it already for Descent v1).

I might try with the first scenario and ask my rebel players what they think about it but we use to play cooperative games such as Ravenloft and Shadows of Brimstone and you never know what the next room looks like...
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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If going with that variant, I strongly suggest that you at least tell your Rebels which direction named rooms and objects are in. It's a little unfair to have them exploring down the wrong paths.

Of course, the method also impacts the Imperial Player. You can't activate the units which start off the map. In fact, clever Rebels may be able to keep tiles they suspect have deployment points invisible, so you wouldn't be able to deploy there...

Some missions could also be broken, especially the ones where the Rebels need to survive until the time limit expires. For example, the IP might need to get a certain unit from one side of the map to the other in X rounds to win. The Rebels could simply choose to not venture near the destination tiles and win that way. For this reason (and the ones above), I suggest that you also house rule that the Imperial Player can reveal any tile at any time if he so wishes.
 
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Waspinator
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Yeah, this sounds like a bad idea. There are circumstances where the Imperials may be moving around rooms the Rebels haven't reached yet.
 
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Miikka Sohlman
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hunzirabi wrote:
Did you play Captured as a side mission? It's extra, it doesn't replace the side mission...
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Andreas Hunziker
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Clipper wrote:
If going with that variant, I strongly suggest that you at least tell your Rebels which direction named rooms and objects are in. It's a little unfair to have them exploring down the wrong paths.
I agree, and it happened to us in "A New Threat". But you can analyze the mission before you play and estimate what the players need to know to be able to win it. As I mentioned, it brings more work to the IP.

Clipper wrote:
Of course, the method also impacts the Imperial Player. You can't activate the units which start off the map. In fact, clever Rebels may be able to keep tiles they suspect have deployment points invisible, so you wouldn't be able to deploy there...
Since "Exploration" is not an official rule, I don't see where this restriction comes from (is Descent played that way?). I moved "invisible" units and deployed on active deployment points whose map-tiles where not on the table yet. The idea is to add mystery and suspension to the playing experience, not to restrict the imperial opposition. You can plot the movement of those unseen units on a piece of paper, or in your imagination. You have to be fair here, your units cannot see the rebels as well, so you should decide from their point of view and act accordingly. They would not position themselves ideally all the time without the IP's knowledge. But then, the rebel players had the power of four brains, while I was stuck with mine....

Clipper wrote:
Some missions could also be broken, especially the ones where the Rebels need to survive until the time limit expires. For example, the IP might need to get a certain unit from one side of the map to the other in X rounds to win. The Rebels could simply choose to not venture near the destination tiles and win that way. For this reason (and the ones above), I suggest that you also house rule that the Imperial Player can reveal any tile at any time if he so wishes.
As I wrote, the burden lies on the IP to give the rebel players the needed information. You also could give them an additional 9th round, or give the mission rewards for winning even if they "technically" lost. I only know the missions mentioned in the campaign log, and avoided to read the others - to not spoil my own surprise

If you want to go this route, discuss it with your fellow players and do it only if you have consent. All of those are only suggestions, and they worked for us - mostly. Your mileage may vary
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Andreas Hunziker
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Hipsu wrote:

Did you play Captured as a side mission? It's extra, it doesn't replace the side mission...
Yes, we played "Captured" as the side mission.

"Captured" jinxed me a bit, since beside "Aftermath" it is the only mission without a card of its own, so I searched some time through the card piles.

"Drawn In" says "Play Captured as a forced mission", and the "Learn to Play Guide" says "... These cards [hint... ...hint] provide an automatic reward to the Imperial player if the heroes decide to resolve anohter side mission instead of this Agenda's mission..."

So I interpreted (wrongly?):

a) A played "forced mission" from an agenda card is choosen as a side mission.
b) [unrelated to "Captured"] if a forced mission is not choosen, the card goes away and the IP gets the reward card. Correct?
c) The IP win of "Drawn In" forces a forced mission, and by doing so taking away the decision from the rebel players, what to play as a side mission...

If "Captured" does not replace the side mission but just interrupts the normal flow of "story mission / side missions", the (not really missing) missing card could have been a hint...

...which I obviously overlooked. Is this somewhere in the many manuals?
 
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Miikka Sohlman
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Forced missions are never side missions, even if they're played from an agenda. Forced missions are played "in between" other missions. There are separate spaces in the campaign log for Forced Missions.

Read "Forced Missions" in the Rules Reference Guide, pages 17-18. It should be pretty clear.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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You are confusing Agenda Side Missions with Forced Missions. They are very different things.

Agenda Side Missions give the Imperial Player a reward if the heroes choose to do a different Side Mission.

Forced Missions, which can come from the Agenda deck OR be specified by a Story Mission insert themselves into the Campaign at the point at which you are told to do them. The Campaign will continue where it left off after resolving the Forced Mission.

All the Mission types are explained in the Missions section of the Rules Reference Guide.

Edit: So what you should have done in your case is immediately after Drawn In ended (before the Upgrade steps), play Captured as a Forced Mission. Once Captured completes, you immediately go back to do the Upgrade steps for the end of Drawn In. After those upgrade steps, the next mission will be a Side Mission chosen by the Rebels.
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Andreas Hunziker
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Hipsu wrote:
Read "Forced Missions" in the Rules Reference Guide, pages 17-18. It should be pretty clear.
It is pretty clear. RTFM as always. Thank you to pointing this out to me. "Captured" was the only of those in our campaign, so the "damage" was not too big, I hope gulp
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Andreas Hunziker
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Clipper wrote:
You are confusing Agenda Side Missions with Forced Missions. They are very different things.

Agenda Side Missions give the Imperial Player a reward if the heroes choose to do a different Side Mission.

Forced Missions, which can come from the Agenda deck OR be specified by a Story Mission insert themselves into the Campaign at the point at which you are told to do them. The Campaign will continue where it left off after resolving the Forced Mission.

All the Mission types are explained in the Missions section of the Rules Reference Guide.

Edit: So what you should have done in your case is immediately after Drawn In ended (before the Upgrade steps), play Captured as a Forced Mission. Once Captured completes, you immediately go back to do the Upgrade steps for the end of Drawn In. After those upgrade steps, the next mission will be a Side Mission chosen by the Rebels.

Many thanks for your explanation. After reading your post I just went through the Agenda-Deck. It helps if you really read what is written on those cards...

I read the Beginners and the Campaign Guides, and used the Rules Reference Guide only as a... ...Reference Guide, if I thought a rule unclear.

Hmm, obviously I have some reading material to fall asleep over
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Peter
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hunzirabi wrote:

Here as an example is how the mission “Captured” developed:

[...]

After the final mission we discussed the use of “exploration” in a possible future campaign, and the bias of the group was more in favor for it than against it. We will see….

So I would say, it is up to you to bring more roleplay into the game (more work for you), or play it by the book.

Thank you for posting this. I was thinking about such a variant and it's good to see it can work, but I won't use it for my first campaign - there are enough tiny rules already to remember for a noob IP.
 
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Eric LAURENT
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Speaking about imperial agenda side missions you can't play Ig88 for instance as there is no agenda side mission in the core set unless you buy the pack. Am I right ?

Another noob question : you are supposed to choose 18 agenda cards. 3 cards out of 6 different groups of agendas. How can you choose Darth Vader side mission agenda as it is not included in a set of 3 cards ?....
 
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Miikka Sohlman
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moavoamoatu wrote:
Speaking about imperial agenda side missions you can't play Ig88 for instance as there is no agenda side mission in the core set unless you buy the pack. Am I right?
Right.

moavoamoatu wrote:
Another noob question : you are supposed to choose 18 agenda cards. 3 cards out of 6 different groups of agendas. How can you choose Darth Vader side mission agenda as it is not included in a set of 3 cards ?....
Vader's side mission IS included in his set of 3 agendas. Dunno what you're talking about.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
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moavoamoatu wrote:
Speaking about imperial agenda side missions you can't play Ig88 for instance as there is no agenda side mission in the core set
Sort of. You may still get to play side and story missions with the IG-88 in it (just like any of the allies and villains in the core box), but can't win him on your side as a Reward.

moavoamoatu wrote:
Another noob question : you are supposed to choose 18 agenda cards. 3 cards out of 6 different groups of agendas.
You choose 6 agenda sets, each consisting of 3 cards. Dark Obsession (and As You Wish, which is maybe even more usable) is in the Lord Vader's Command agenda set, so if you choose that as one of the 6 agenda sets into your agenda deck, you might come across it and maybe even can afford to buy it during the campaign. (It's a pretty hard mission for the imperial player though, as it should be.)
 
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Eric LAURENT
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Thanks that's clear.
 
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