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Subject: First Steps main plots/subplots as Basic Tragedies main plots/subplots rss

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Is there a reason why these plots are not listed on the Basic Tragedies playmat besides space?

I figure if Murder plan is both a First Steps and a Basic Tragedy, then it probably isn't related to difficulty.

I am just making a custom reference sheet, and if First Steps plots/subplots work with Basic Tragedies, I'd rather just make one big reference sheet.
 
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Benji
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Because its easier for the protagonists to find one out of three, and that's the whole point of the first steps set??
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So then adding the 2 missing plots to the basic tragedy sets is reasonable.

I suppose it actually just makes the Basic Tragedy level more difficult if anything.

Yeah they look actually more difficult than some of the other basic tragedies.

Cool, so adding them seems worthwhile!
 
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Benji
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?

Again, you are changing the game if you just combine them differently. I don't exactly understand what you are trying to do, but the sets are not arbitrary. The plots are combined as they are for a reason, because their loss conditions overlap in parts. Changing the sets influences the difficulty of all scenarios, adding more possibilities by adding plots and subplots may even make then unwinnable for the protagonists.
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My question is what is the reason for not including them.

I get that the designers chose those plots/subplots. But it doesn't sound like anyone has tried adding in the first sets ones.

I can't see how anything would be unwinnable, at least not without some explanation. Given more days per loop, more loops- I imagine almost any case would be solveable.

If that's true, you could dramatically extend the life of the game, I would imagine by having more plots/subplots. I haven't seen the expansion materials, but from your response it sounds like they too have an exclusive set that does not simply add to the possibilities?
 
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Roberta Yang
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Not everyone wants to play a seven-hour game of Tragedy Looper in which the protagonists spend eleven nine-day loops gradually whittling down the list of twenty possible plots and forty possible subplots.
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Josh Bonner
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1) The game already takes up to two hours to play with the standard number of days and loops. More than that is asking a lot from a casual gaming group, and by adding more plots to one tragedy set, you'd be amplifying the time needed for ALL scripts.

2) Scripts are balanced around what paths the protagonists have for eliminating possible plots. More options makes it harder for the scriptwriter to make sure that their script is fair without imposing restrictions on the mastermind's play (e.g. never use Forbid Goodwill).

3) Lots of groups play without notes, and there's a limit to the number of possibilities you can make them keep track of before the game becomes unplayable.

You also have to consider how the plots and subplots would interact with each other. For example, Light of the Avenger is basically a more powerful version of Giant Time Bomb. They have the exact same loss condition, and if you restrict how you use the Brain he's indistinguishable from a Witch without expensive goodwill usage from specific characters (which the MM can block!), but he has additional options if you need them. It's just not interesting to have both, and is potentially a taboo issue.

Or, take the Hideous Script subplot. In First Steps, there's no final guess, so Curmudgeons aren't a huge balance issue. But in Basic Tragedy, if you want the protagonists to be able to win by final guess, they have to be able to figure out the roles. Suppose the MM just never refuses anything and pretends to have Circle of Friends instead?


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Jeez guys, I was curious on the impact to the game. I do not see how some groups choose to modify their play has anything to do with my question.

From the sound of it, it might make final guess a less viable option but not necessarily ruin any avenue of success. It will also likely require longer games.

I'll try it out and maybe report back. I didn't expect such a negative response to my question and am really disappointed by it.
 
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Christian K
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It confused me a bit that some plots and stuff from first steps is also used in the asic set and some is not. I am guessing that the ones removed are considered too simple and might give problems with for example the final guess.
 
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Yorick Heijink
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I'm interested in hearing if it will work. So do please report back on it after you tried it.

Also, from a practical standpoint; would you make new set sheets so that all information is on one side of the paper? With the standard sheets you'd have to flip them over every time to check plots from both Basic and First Steps.
 
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I made a new sheet that includes the additional main plots and subplots.

I'm trying out a few new ways of organizing the information as well. I posted a file, but it's not up as yet.

I took a few liberties with names for space, but here is my attempt at an aid to laminate and write on.


edit- corrected image
 
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Josh Bonner
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Well, you did ask why they weren't included by default, so the average gaming group is going to be a factor in that. Naturally you can experiment with whatever you want with your own group.

If you play a bunch of games with this setup, I'd be interested to hear whether you see any difference in intrigue bluffing, since you have an additional fixed location with an intrigue loss condition on it. Not sure if that would have an actual effect or not.
 
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Matt Gorman
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One thing to keep in mind, is that there are other plot/subplot sets than first steps and basic tragedy in the upcoming expansions. the extra sets of plots and subplots are not intended to just be combined into a huge list. if you add more possibilities, you add more things that the protagonists need to eliminate. even if the first step stuff isn't used, the fact that it COULD be used makes it harder for the protagonists.

That all being said, none of the plots are really "easier" or "harder" than any other plot, so its not exactly impossible to make custom tragedy sets for your own scripts. But I would advise against just throwing in too many possible plots and subplots, as it really makes the game hard if not impossible for the protagonists without dragging it all out.

I actually thought that it was intended to use the first steps stuff when I was learning the game and just started getting into basic tragedies, and I thought the game was much better once I realized that it was not the case. too much stuff becomes unsolvable. If you really wanted to make custom sets, I would not just lump them all together, but rather pick and choose (or invent your own) from the existing sets.
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