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Subject: Ambush, paid for and when rss

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Vez A
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Here are two questions about the Ambush rule.

The rules say Ambush "may take place in 1 or 2 spaces selected and paid for as March destinations (0 cost for LoCs, 3.3.2) or for Attack by NVA Guerrillas".

Formulated as having to occur in a space for which either a March or Attack has been paid for, an Ambush in the following circumstances seems to be illegal.

Suppose there's an underground guerrilla on a LoC (or in any other space, for that matter) but that it got there by some other means than by a paid March, like via an event as a free March or free placement. The rules seem to imply that our guerrilla ought not be able to ambush other than in connection with a paid Attack as its placement on the LoC has not been paid for.

My question is: is that implication intended? If so, I suppose there ought to be a way of marking eligible or ineligible guerrillas (which would just be fiddly). OR perhaps I have got something wrong here, which leads me to this question:

Second question. The rules tie the occurrence of Ambush together with the occurrence of an op in that space. Is this tie intended as temporally fixed such that guerrillas that marched now (during turn n) also may ambush now only (during turn n) but not later (during n+1)?
 
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Quote:
Suppose there's an underground guerrilla on a LoC (or in any other space, for that matter) but that it got there by some other means than by a paid March, like via an event as a free March or free placement.

Well, if the guerilla got there free via an event card, it is irrelevant because unless the event also specifies a free Ambush or Attack, you are done the moment you execute all the instructions on the card.

But if we are talking about a 0 cost March onto an LoC, then as far as I can tell, and assuming his eligibility box allowed Op + SA, that unit would be eligible to Ambush (not Attack because March is the Op). Now, I was under the impression that a faction had to have at least 1 resource in order to Op or Op + SA whether he actually spent it or not, but I'm not finding a rule to that effect [Edit: Think of the US where ARVN resources are at ECON; he can still Op, he just has to choose actions that don't cost resources] so it seems that even an insurgent faction with 0 resources could still March + Ambush if he restricted himself to Marching onto LoC's. I could be way off on this, so someone correct me if I am wrong.

To answer the second question: This turn only. That is, a March this turn does not carry over so to speak to the next turn. SA always go with an Op that turn.
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Vez A
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Scottgun wrote:
To answer the second question: This turn only. That is, a March this turn does not carry over so to speak to the next turn. SA always go with an Op that turn.

Ok that's the crux of this. I was indeed aware of the fact that SAs don't carry over. But I was not aware of the fact that the Ambush eligible position of a guerrilla apparently does not carry over from turn to turn.

Thus for example. Suppose during turn n, I march a first guerrilla onto a LoC but do not conduct an ambush with that guerrilla. Then, later, during turn n+x, I want to use that first guerrilla to conduct an ambush. What are my options here?

I could 1) pay for an attack and ambush with that first guerrilla, 2) pay for a march and get a second different guerrilla on that same LoC and ambush with that second guerrilla.

But, as far as I can see, I may not 3) take all the steps as in 2 but ambush with the first guerrilla, or may I?

Also, I may not 4) march whatever other guerrillas elsewhere on the map and ambush with the first guerrilla, right?

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Vez A
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Actually, the answer to my question #4 is no. One may not do a non-moving ambush. That issue has been discussed before.

But how about #3? The rule about Ambush talks about paid spaces and not marched guerrillas as deciding the eligibility to ambush.

Hence, as far as I can see, it ought to be permissibkle to march a first guerrilla onto a LoC during turn n and then, during turn n+1, march a second guerrilla onto the same LoC and go on to ambush with BOTH guerrillas (but removing pieces in two different adjacent spaces). This is because the march of the second guerrilla fulfills the condition that the ambush space is the location of a paid march. In these circumstances, it seems, a non-moving guerrilla may conduct an ambush.

Or am I off?

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masil wrote:


I could 1) pay for an attack and ambush with that first guerrilla

Yes.

Quote:
2) pay for a march and get a second different guerrilla on that same LoC and ambush with that second guerrilla.

Yes, but on a subsequent turn. That is to say, when you choose Attack as your Op, you are limited to using only Attack Ops on the board that turn. To put it another way, you couldn't on the same turn Attack and Ambush with that first guerilla and March and Ambush with the second.

Quote:
But, as far as I can see, I may not 3) take all the steps as in 2 but ambush with the first guerrilla, or may I?

Don't quite understand this, but I think the last response addressed it I hope.

Quote:
Also, I may not 4) march whatever other guerrillas elsewhere on the map and ambush with the first guerrilla, right?

This is a good question because while it has been established that there is such a thing as a Sweep "in place" (i.e. Choosing Sweep for your Operation, but not actually moving pieces), but I don't know if there is such thing as a March in place. If there is, then yes, you could March the LoC guerrilla in place and then take advantage of the Ambush SA. If not, then no. Little help on that question?
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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You don't track the identity of individual Underground Guerrilla pieces. They're all anonymous, faceless and, as long as they are located in the same space, completely interchangable.

Your case 3 means that you March at least one Underground Guerrilla into a space where you already have another Underground Guerrilla, and then Activate any one of the interchangable Underground Guerrillas in that space - including the one that was already there - for the Ambush. That is perfectly legal.

The crux is that 4.4.3 requires that the Guerrillas that entered the space during the March have to remain Underground. If they get Activated by the March, you can't Ambush even with the Underground Guerrilla that was already in the space during this March Operation.

4.4.3 also limits you to activating one Guerrilla in each "selected location" - i.e., the space you Ambush from, not the space you remove enemy pieces in.

Regards,
Oerjan
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Oerjan Ariander
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There is no such thing as a "March in place". Per 3.3.2 March, you only pay (0 or 1 Resource, as appropriate for the space) for spaces that you're actually moving pieces into.

Regards,
Oerjan
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chuck reaume
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Oerjan wrote:
The crux is that 4.4.3 requires that the Guerrillas that entered the space during the March have to remain Underground. If they get Activated by the March, you can't Ambush even with the Underground Guerrilla that was already in the space during this March Operation.

4.4.3 also limits you to activating one Guerrilla in each "selected location" - i.e., the space you Ambush from, not the space you remove enemy pieces in.

Regards,
Oerjan

been wondering about this since day one of playing FitL.

thanks for clearing this up!
 
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Larry Haskell
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Oerjan wrote:


The crux is that 4.4.3 requires that the Guerrillas that entered the space during the March have to remain Underground. If they get Activated by the March, you can't Ambush even with the Underground Guerrilla that was already in the space during this March Operation.


How important is that distinction? In the case you describe, you could just Ambush first with the in-place guerrilla, then March into the space with the others.
 
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Vez A
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Yes, I second Chuck. This ought to be clear for me now. May this be the last march related rules forum thread I ever post.

[Edit: Nope. A lapse already: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1418332/nva-bot-march-split...]

Thank you.
 
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gamedog wrote:
Oerjan wrote:


The crux is that 4.4.3 requires that the Guerrillas that entered the space during the March have to remain Underground. If they get Activated by the March, you can't Ambush even with the Underground Guerrilla that was already in the space during this March Operation.


How important is that distinction? In the case you describe, you could just Ambush first with the in-place guerrilla, then March into the space with the others.

There's, I believe, a distinct sense in which, in the big picture, many/most rules discussions are of no particularly drastic significance to gameplay. Often they pertain to certain rather particular situations only.
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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gamedog wrote:
Oerjan wrote:


The crux is that 4.4.3 requires that the Guerrillas that entered the space during the March have to remain Underground. If they get Activated by the March, you can't Ambush even with the Underground Guerrilla that was already in the space during this March Operation.


How important is that distinction? In the case you describe, you could just Ambush first with the in-place guerrilla, then March into the space with the others.
Not in the same Operation, you can't. During a March Operation, you're only allowed to select Ambush spaces where a Guerrilla that just Marched in is still Underground (i.e., wasn't Activated by the March).

Think of it as the Guerrillas that were Activated by the March alerting the enemy, spoiling the opportunity for the hidden Guerrillas as well.

That means that your stationary Guerrilla would have to use an Attack Op for its Ambush; that in turn means that it would have to execute the Ambush during a different Activation - i.e., a different card - than the March. Pretty important, in other words.

Regards,
Oerjan
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Larry Haskell
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Oerjan wrote:
gamedog wrote:
Oerjan wrote:


The crux is that 4.4.3 requires that the Guerrillas that entered the space during the March have to remain Underground. If they get Activated by the March, you can't Ambush even with the Underground Guerrilla that was already in the space during this March Operation.


How important is that distinction? In the case you describe, you could just Ambush first with the in-place guerrilla, then March into the space with the others.
Not in the same Operation, you can't. During a March Operation, you're only allowed to select Ambush spaces where a Guerrilla that just Marched in is still Underground (i.e., wasn't Activated by the March).

Think of it as the Guerrillas that were Activated by the March alerting the enemy, spoiling the opportunity for the hidden Guerrillas as well.

That means that your stationary Guerrilla would have to use an Attack Op for its Ambush; that in turn means that it would have to execute the Ambush during a different Activation - i.e., a different card - than the March. Pretty important, in other words.

Regards,
Oerjan

Of course! I forgot Ambush/March specifies the ambushing guerrilla must be one of the guerrillas which just marched!

 
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Oerjan Ariander
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Uh, well... it doesn't quite say that, although the end result would've been the same if it had! ...which I guess is what caused Masil's original question.

The exact quote is:
4.4.3” wrote:
At least 1 NVA Guerrilla that Marched into or will Attack in each space must be Underground (1.4.3).
IOW, it doesn't actually say that a Marching Guerrilla must be Activated for the Ambush; if it had, Masil's case 3 would have been clearly illegal. What it does say that it must be possible to use one of the Marching Guerrillas for the Ambush, i.e., the Marchers have to still be Underground after moving into the intended Ambush space. As long as that is possible, you can use any Underground Militia in that space to execute the Ambush...

/Oerjan
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