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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Carve a Path vs Stealthy rss

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Silidus
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Ok, so we know melee attacks that target a stealthy enemy must roll at least 3 range or be considered a miss.

We also know that if a melee attack 'targeting' multiple enemies (such as whirlwind) targets at least one stealthy monster, then it must roll 3 range or be considered a miss against all of them.

But, Carve a Path states;

Apply+ 1 to your Speed. Action: Move up to your Speed, then perform an attack.
During this movement, you may move through spaces containing enemy figures.
This attack affects each monster you moved through during this action.


So if the 'target' of the attack is not a stealthy monster, but one of the monsters moved through is stealthy, is a 2 range considered a miss on all of them? Just on the stealthy monster? or not at all (ie range 2 attack still 'affects' the stealthy monster?


 
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Paul
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While I want to say it is still a single attack and if the attack is a miss for anyone, it is a miss- that has weird implications for things like blast and firebreath. However, in this case it is important to note that stealthy only applies when TARGETING the monster. Carve a Path does not target, and does not trigger stealthy at all.

I will ask FFG about the miss situation, though. For the record- solve this by buying unstoppable.
 
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Silidus
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zaltyre wrote:

I will ask FFG about the miss situation, though. For the record- solve this by buying unstoppable.

Not sure Unstoppable would apply in this case (since we are affecting the 2 range roll, not the X).

The issue for FireBreath and Blast is already resolved, see:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1099045/whirlwind-vs-stealt...

Edit: I take that back, both FireBreath and Blast both use the 'affects' wording as well.
 
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Dean L
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Not at all. Attacks 'targeting' and 'affecting' are two different things. So Stealthy doesn't kick in if the figure is only affected.

Note that if the player moves through one or more non-stealthy figures, then performs the attack action on the stealthy figure, the figure is then being targeted and stealthy does kick in, and less than three range will mean all the attacks miss.
 
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Silidus
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Deano2099 wrote:
Not at all. Attacks 'targeting' and 'affecting' are two different things. So Stealthy doesn't kick in if the figure is only affected.

Note that if the player moves through one or more non-stealthy figures, then performs the attack action on the stealthy figure, the figure is then being targeted and stealthy does kick in, and less than three range will mean all the attacks miss.

Thanks, after reading some of the previous resolutions regarding Blast, I think you have the right answer here. So Blast/Firebreath or anything else that 'affects' multiple monsters without targeting them is an end run around 'stealthy'.

Widow Tarha's heroic feat is a little weird in that it uses both 'affects' and 'targets' in its wording, but since it specifically says both affected monsters are considered targets, a failed range roll against a stealthy monster would count as a miss against the other (unstealthy) monster as well.


Edit: Tarha's heroic:
Perform an attack. This attack affects 2 different monsters in your line of sight. 1 attack roll is made but each monster rolls defense dice separately. Both monsters are considered targets of your attack.
 
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Johannes Benedikt
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Deano2099 wrote:
Not at all. Attacks 'targeting' and 'affecting' are two different things. So Stealthy doesn't kick in if the figure is only affected.

Note that if the player moves through one or more non-stealthy figures, then performs the attack action on the stealthy figure, the figure is then being targeted and stealthy does kick in, and less than three range will mean all the attacks miss.

But going strictly by the wording "Carve the path" features no attack that targets a monster. As I read it you roll for an attack which then affect all monsters you moved through
 
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Silidus
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Carve a path specifies that you move X and then perform an attack.

Whatever the target of that attack is, is the 'target'.
 
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Paul
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There has been an FFG response previously that carve a pah explicitly targets zero monsters, it only affects monsters.
 
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Silidus
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zaltyre wrote:
There has been an FFG response previously that carve a pah explicitly targets zero monsters, it only affects monsters.

I think I found it, but does that mean that Carve a Path ONLY affects monsters it has moved through?

For instance;

HMMMXY
XXXXXX

X = empty space
H = Hero (move 3)
M = Monster
Y = Monster

In the above, could a hero with 3 move (4 with Carve a Path) hit 'Y' with the attack?

I have always played it as H moves through 3 monsters to reach the space infront of Y, then attacks Y and the attack 'affects' all monsters he moved through.

What you are suggesting is that H moves 3 spaces through the Ms and then rolls an attack that affects all 3, but H cannot harm Y as doing so would require 5 move (so as not to interrupt on Y's space).

 
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Paul
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The hero cannot attack Y in that image. The attack affects only the spaces moved through.
 
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Angus McKhager
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Silidus wrote:
I think I found it, but does that mean that Carve a Path ONLY affects monsters it has moved through?
[...]
I have always played it as H moves through 3 monsters to reach the space infront of Y, then attacks Y and the attack 'affects' all monsters he moved through.[...]
It took me a while to realize what You wrote here and Your first sentence is correct. The movement and the attack are combined into a single action, so You move and then attack (affect with the attack) only monsters, that You moved through.

What's more, the card says 'Move up to your Speed' so (opposed to 'Move X spaces') you obey normal movement restriction of water spaces costing 2 movement points to enter. Just to clarify, even though action gives You movement points, You are not allowed to interrupt this action by spending movement points given from another source (i.e. movement action).

Silidus wrote:
[...]What you are suggesting is that H moves 3 spaces through the Ms and then rolls an attack that affects all 3, but H cannot harm Y as doing so would require 5 move (so as not to interrupt on Y's space).

Last thing - 6, not 5, because You need to end Your movement in an empty space.

I hope, that helps
 
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Paul
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"Move up to your speed" has been taken as more similar to "move X spaces" than "perform a move action." No MP involved, water is 1. The only difference is instead of a set number (5 spaces) it's a variable number based on your speed (#your speed spaces.)
 
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Angus McKhager
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zaltyre wrote:
"Move up to your speed" has been taken as more similar to "move X spaces" than "perform a move action." No MP involved, water is 1. The only difference is instead of a set number (5 spaces) it's a variable number based on your speed (#your speed spaces.)
I was interpreting it the way You wrote it, for a long time. Then, recently I read through all "FFG Sez", lot of topics from 'rules' sections on base game and addons, some topics on FFG forums and all I've got was a headache and 14 questions sended to FFG yesterday I know, I've read somewhere quote of Kara Justin (see below) explaining the difference between 'Move up to your Speed' and 'Move X spaces', but I can't recall where it was.

Let this be a substitute:
Core Rulebook, p 17 wrote:

When activated, a familiar may perform a move action following the same rules as heroes. Familiars treat any special terrain (other than obstacles) as water during their movement. The familiar may perform additional types of actions during its activation, as noted on its Familiar card. These additional actions, unless otherwise noted, may be performed in addition to the move action and may interrupt the move action in a way similar to hero move actions. If no such other actions are noted, then all the familiar can do on its turn is move up to its Speed value.
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Paul
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Yes, it seems the phrasing is used in different places to mean different things. Please post your answer here and/or in the FFG sez thread when you get it. If the official stance is going to be that move up to your speed means MPs, that would be very good to know.
 
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Angus McKhager
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Found it! http://boardgamegeek.com/article/13564354#13564354
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Paul
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Khager wrote:
That is very interesting, although it raises other important questions- specifically, do these abilities grant actual movement points, or is the movement simply performed as if you had movement points. If they are actually movement points, can they be saved for later in the turn, effectively allowing Jain to interrupt her heroic feat? (That seems like it would not be allowed, as her feat is not a move action.)
 
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Angus McKhager
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zaltyre wrote:
Khager wrote:
That is very interesting, although it raises other important questions- specifically, do these abilities grant actual movement points, or is the movement simply performed as if you had movement points. If they are actually movement points, can they be saved for later in the turn, effectively allowing Jain to interrupt her heroic feat? (That seems like it would not be allowed, as her feat is not a move action.)
Hmm, judging by Justin's wording, i'd say that her Hero Feat doesn't give her any movement points. Rather, allows her to move as she was spending up to 2x speed movement points. ...Yeah, this sounds perfectly logical.
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Dawid
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Khager wrote:
Hmm, judging by Justin's wording, i'd say that her Hero Feat doesn't give her any movement points. Rather, allows her to move as she was spending up to 2x speed movement points. ...Yeah, this sounds perfectly logical.
I second that.
Movement form "move up to X" actions are definitely to perform while resolving those actions.
 
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Paul
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While I agree that "like MP, only not" is readable from that response, I am a bit disappointed if that ends up being the ruling only because it results in yet another mode of movement:

1) Movement points(MP): subject to immobilize and terrain MP costs, including pit "end move action". cannot move out of pits.
2) non-point MP: subject to terrain movement point costs , but not immobilize or "end move action", can move out of pits.
3) Move spaces: count spaces, ignore movement point costs of terrain but subject to other penalties. can move out of pits.

Then there is the 4th one that is not really movement:

Remove and place- count spaces to determine range, ignore figures and nonobstacle terrain, suffer non MP effects of only entered space.

It just further complicates an already tedious movement system, is all. It may very well be the intended reading though, it is hard to say.
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