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Subject: ACTS and Mandatory Cards rss

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John Hathorn
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I haven't tried it on my own in a test game, but what happens if a turn is ended in ACTS but a player is holding a mandatory card?
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Michael Kiefte
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JohnnyOffice wrote:
I haven't tried it on my own in a test game, but what happens if a turn is ended in ACTS but a player is holding a mandatory card?

Players must play their mandatory cards before the turn ends. It's impossible to end a turn with a mandatory card in someone's hand.

Is your question regarding what you should do if you accidentally advance the turn before all mandatory events are played?
 
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John Hathorn
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mkiefte wrote:
JohnnyOffice wrote:
I haven't tried it on my own in a test game, but what happens if a turn is ended in ACTS but a player is holding a mandatory card?

Players must play their mandatory cards before the turn ends. It's impossible to end a turn with a mandatory card in someone's hand.

Is your question regarding what you should do if you accidentally advance the turn before all mandatory events are played?
I'm asking if ACTS stops the End Turn process if a mandatory card is in a players hand but unplayed? Or does it pop-up a notification? Or does it allow the turn to end anyway and unethical players could take advantage of ACTS?
 
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Kristian Thy
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JohnnyOffice wrote:
I'm asking if ACTS stops the End Turn process if a mandatory card is in a players hand but unplayed?

It does not (I just tested).

And really, ACTS has no idea what a Mandatory Event is - to ACTS it's just another card whose event text happens to start with "ONCE ONLY MANDATORY EVENT".

You have to rely on people not cheating for this one. Or play with a moderator.
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Michael Kiefte
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turbothy wrote:

You have to rely on people not cheating for this one. Or play with a moderator.

The reality is that I've never seen anyone check--not even in a tournament. There are ways you could get busted of course.
 
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John Hathorn
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mkiefte wrote:
turbothy wrote:

You have to rely on people not cheating for this one. Or play with a moderator.

The reality is that I've never seen anyone check--not even in a tournament. There are ways you could get busted of course.
I just created a test game and saw that the moderator can see where the cards in the deck are, so at least there's that.

I like to see myself as an optimist when it comes to other people, but I do recognize that there are some cheaters among us, so it's a little unsettling that ACTS doesn't validate, well, really anything when the End Turn button is clicked.

I'd be happy to play with the ACTS HiS module in a test sandbox to see if that can be implemented if Ed or the owners of ACTS want.
 
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Kristian Thy
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I just checked, and Twilight Struggle has a mechanism that prevents ending the turn if one player holds a scoring card, so the basics should already be there in the ACTS code.

I actually think this would be a nice addition to the ACTS module for HIS, but it would require an update of the cards, because currently ACTS can't tell mandatory events from any other card.

I'll write Kurt and ask him what he thinks of this.

Edit to add: I think this'll catch more brain farts than cheaters - I've certainly been guilty of passing with a Mandatory Event in hand once or twice, simply by virtue of not thinking. At least this mechanism would prevent the turn being advanced, forcing people to realize their mistake before the turn is over.
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Rob Davidson
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Brain farts vs cheating - who can tell w/o an injection of Scopolamine really..indeed it's like speeding thru a school zone; I don't care if you 'didn't see the sign', the camera has you at 50 in a 20.

That mentioned, had the following sequence all in one VQ game using ACTS:

1. Player hit 'play as operations' for a Mandatory Event; none noticed this as the event part was played out in Vassal....

2. Very next turn (of course) that event is re-dealt to another's hand; who doesn't notice it as a dead event until the penultimate card play at the end of the turn...personally, I thought that we should just play it as a 2cp card and let it go, but....

3. Without discussion as a whole, 3 players resolved that the player holding it should re-draw to replace the card...which turned into a '5' sack card as it turned out...which was then used to do a patronage/naval/piracy move, where....

4. both piracy die(no leader) rolled '6' for a point and card....and...

5. The card draw was last card left in target hand....who had passed previously...and it was a mandatory (Enterprise/England). Do I have to say what power was pirated here?

With no safeguards in ACTS for these types of things, I really wonder about the purpose of using it other than a message board for this game at this time. Part of the point is to prevent human error, etc; and this sequence really illustrates that it's not doing this in this module at this time.

And finally, there is nothing laid out as a sanction against passing/holding Mandatory Events...just says don't do it...what should be done in RL situation here in the future (this particular game is done)? Can't really boot; could it be something like lose all held cards and take a -1 card marker? In a live game, you can have players slightly fan their cards to show 'no red/no mandatories' during pass/end turn.
 
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tabpub wrote:
1. Player hit 'play as operations' for a Mandatory Event; none noticed this as the event part was played out in Vassal....

2. Very next turn (of course) that event is re-dealt to another's hand; who doesn't notice it as a dead event until the penultimate card play at the end of the turn...personally, I thought that we should just play it as a 2cp card and let it go, but....

3. Without discussion as a whole, 3 players resolved that the player holding it should re-draw to replace the card...

Completely normal procedure so far. No harm, no foul. The player who was sitting with the dead event was at a certain disadvantage since he couldn't know what card he was really sitting with (having Sack might change your plans), but that was partly his own mistake.

tabpub wrote:
5. The card draw was last card left in target hand....who had passed previously...and it was a mandatory (Enterprise/England). Do I have to say what power was pirated here?

Oof. I'd rule that the event must be resolved immediately by the offending player, but his 2 CP are forfeit. Then the pirating player draws a replacement card from the deck.

Quote:
With no safeguards in ACTS for these types of things, I really wonder about the purpose of using it other than a message board for this game at this time.

Indeed, the game log is the main selling point for me. I've played a number of games with just messages and dice rolls the game log, handling cards and treasures in Cyberboard.

tabpub wrote:
And finally, there is nothing laid out as a sanction against passing/holding Mandatory Events...just says don't do it...what should be done in RL situation here in the future (this particular game is done)? Can't really boot; could it be something like lose all held cards and take a -1 card marker? In a live game, you can have players slightly fan their cards to show 'no red/no mandatories' during pass/end turn.

What will be the blanket sanction for accidentally (or not) flipping a unit from merc to regular? What will be the blanket sanction for accidentally (or not) peeping at Portuguese treasures while drawing them? Once you start drawing up a catalog of punishments, where do you stop?
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Rob Davidson
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turbothy wrote:
tabpub wrote:
1. Player hit 'play as operations' for a Mandatory Event; none noticed this as the event part was played out in Vassal....

2. Very next turn (of course) that event is re-dealt to another's hand; who doesn't notice it as a dead event until the penultimate card play at the end of the turn...personally, I thought that we should just play it as a 2cp card and let it go, but....

3. Without discussion as a whole, 3 players resolved that the player holding it should re-draw to replace the card...

Completely normal procedure so far. No harm, no foul. The player who was sitting with the dead event was at a certain disadvantage since he couldn't know what card he was really sitting with (having Sack might change your plans), but that was partly his own mistake.

tabpub wrote:
Neglected to say that the hand in question had also been 'discovered' by a 'Gain Intel' previously and actions taken had been based on that knowledge. The immediate change of a '2' to a '5' was disconcerting to have happen. Another 'GainIntel' (w/Crypto) might have been done (as the other card was a '3'/RulerFallsIll.

tabpub wrote:
5. The card draw was last card left in target hand....who had passed previously...and it was a mandatory (Enterprise/England). Do I have to say what power was pirated here?

Oof. I'd rule that the event must be resolved immediately by the offending player, but his 2 CP are forfeit. Then the pirating player draws a replacement card from the deck.

tabpub wrote:
Ok...let's see; if the card had been played properly, it would not have been in hand to be pirated; so now, if that same pirate action had been done, there would be no draw from hand option and it would be a VP gain.

Quote:
With no safeguards in ACTS for these types of things, I really wonder about the purpose of using it other than a message board for this game at this time.

Indeed, the game log is the main selling point for me. I've played a number of games with just messages and dice rolls the game log, handling cards and treasures in Cyberboard.

tabpub wrote:
But, can Cyberboard (or Vassal) 'track' mandatories for either pass/end turn checks at this time? As it seems to stand right now, we are at the mercy of the player to know and handle this properly.

tabpub wrote:
And finally, there is nothing laid out as a sanction against passing/holding Mandatory Events...just says don't do it...what should be done in RL situation here in the future (this particular game is done)? Can't really boot; could it be something like lose all held cards and take a -1 card marker? In a live game, you can have players slightly fan their cards to show 'no red/no mandatories' during pass/end turn.

What will be the blanket sanction for accidentally (or not) flipping a unit from merc to regular? What will be the blanket sanction for accidentally (or not) peeping at Portuguese treasures while drawing them? Once you start drawing up a catalog of punishments, where do you stop?

KT - these last examples aren't the same really; troops can be tracked and followed on the game board and the Portuguese treasures?...ok, so the Spanish might 'peek'...and then knowing that would affect their award decision....whee...not the same as holding Dutch Revolt until the holder's position is improved; nor Treasure Fleet....nor PBull....etc, etc.

All that I know now is that in the future, when I see a Mandatory played on a turn after it could have been in the deck, I'll always be wondering...'Did they really just draw that...or...not.'

Was thinking, in a moderated game could the players use the reveal card(s) option to show the moderator what they are holding over or passing with in hand? At least this would counter any doubts in a tournament setting if this policy were in place. Don't really care if a 'pick-up' game gets done 'wrong'.
 
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Martin B.
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tabpub wrote:
That mentioned, had the following sequence all in one VQ game using ACTS:
I am sorry to tell you, that you posted in the wrong forum. This is HIS and not VQ.
 
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Rob Davidson
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mgep wrote:
tabpub wrote:
That mentioned, had the following sequence all in one VQ game using ACTS:
I am sorry to tell you, that you posted in the wrong forum. This is HIS and not VQ.
Aware of that fact;

A. the discussion is about ACTS and mandatory events:

B. As the implementation of VQ and HIS in ACTS is the same (as far as I know), the fact that the misplays occurred in a VQ game is not the point. It's really about what can be done to avoid this situation in either game.

C. Didn't wish therefore to start another parallel thread on the subject.
 
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