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Subject: Chaos United Primary Ability rss

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James Carlton
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Question about the combat upgrade Chaos United from my first play.

"Your opponent may choose and rout 1 of his units. If they do not, gain a die (of your choice of value)

The basic scenario for the card is pretty obvious. If I play Chaos United on an opponent with unrouted units and no extenuating circumstances. If they don't rout a unit, I get a die of my choice. Seems pretty simple.

Scenario 2 is slightly more confusing.
If I play Chaos United on an opponent with nothing but routed units:

a) They choose to rout one of their units so I don't get a dice. The routed unit cannot be routed again so nothing happens.
b) They are unable to choose a unit to rout because they're all routed, so I get a dice.

Scenario 3 is trickier still.
I play Chaos United on a Space Marine player who has played Show No Fear. "During this execution round your units cannot be routed."

a) They choose to rout one of their units to be routed so I don't get a dice. That unit cannot be routed because it's immune so nothing happens.
b) They cannot choose to rout a unit because their units cannot be routed, so I get a dice.


They way I played was B in both cases. Mainly because it seems to contrast with how Khorne's Rage is worded.

"Your opponent chooses and routs 1 of his units unless he spends (shield)"

To me the sticking point is 'may' and the target of the option. The only option for Khorne's Rage is to pay the shield or not. If that doesn't happen they have to try and rout a unit, regardless of whether that is effective or not.

With Chaos United... the option is on routing a unit or not. They can try to rout a unit, if they can - no free dice. If they can't - even if they try... you get a free dice.

Is this correct?

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Colin Sham
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That's exactly what a Cylon would say!
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You're right.

Scenario 2, where you have nothing but routed units, is similar to the questions asked of Lure of Chaos. There, you cannot rout a routed unit to gain a die, because the rules explicitly say you cannot rout a unit that is already routed.
Rout and Rally - pg 11 RRG wrote:
»» A unit cannot become routed if it is already routed.

As such, the answer is B. They are unable to choose a unit to rout because they are all routed. You gain a dice. Congratulations.

Scenario 3 is basically the same result, except the Space Marine effect is cause. Again, they cannot rout, therefore they cannot choose to rout, and you gain a dice.

With Khorne's Rage, you are not choosing to re-rout a routed unit (because that's not allowed). What you're doing is not paying, and the result of Khorne's rage is applied. That effect is to rout a unit, but since all units are routed, they cannot be routed again. It may sound pedantic (I feel that way writing all this up), but it'll help keep the rules consistent.
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Alex Almond
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Scenario 3 depend if your attacking or defending.

If Chaos is attacking your card resolves before the marines ability takes effect.

If marines go first the Marine play has to choose whether the ability resolves or no, but before you reveal your card.

Cards are not resolved simultaneously.
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Björn
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Ridel wrote:
It may sound pedantic (I feel that way writing all this up), but it'll help keep the rules consistent.

Actually, I think I understand it for the first time. I couldn't fully wrap my head around it until now.
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Andy Day

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Darkmancer wrote:
Scenario 3 depend if your attacking or defending.

If Chaos is attacking your card resolves before the marines ability takes effect.

If marines go first the Marine play has to choose whether the ability resolves or no, but before you reveal your card.

Cards are not resolved simultaneously.
So you are saying that Show No Fear only prevents marines from being router by damage, if they are defending. But it prevents all routing, if they are attacking? That is a pretty huge difference. I wonder what other cards have that sort of effect.
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Alex Almond
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Correct.

The sequence is Attacker Abilities, Defender Abilities, Apply Damage.

It's generally better to be the attacker, often to rout/destroy a unit or remove enemy dice, before a defender's ability is used.

This takes a bit of skill/knowledge/luck of guessing what the defender is going to play this round.
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Fax Gerat
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I am not sure about the Lure of chaos vs Show no fear Situation. Show no fear says: During this execution round your Units cannot become routed.

they cannot become routed, yes, but the UM player can still choose a unit to rout. It ll only stay up because it the rout will not take place.
 
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Benjamin
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maerlyn wrote:
I am not sure about the Lure of chaos vs Show no fear Situation. Show no fear says: During this execution round your Units cannot become routed.

they cannot become routed, yes, but the UM player can still choose a unit to rout. It ll only stay up because it the rout will not take place.

He cannot choose to rout a unit that cannot be routed.
 
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Tony M
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I played my first game today and we had this situation come up. An attacking Ultramarine player played Show No Fear and the defending Chaos player played Lure of Chaos.

Option 1
Inconmon wrote:
He cannot choose to rout a unit that cannot be routed.

Option 2
maerlyn wrote:
they cannot become routed, yes, but the UM player can still choose a unit to rout. It ll only stay up because it the rout will not take place.

Strictly reading the card text, option 1 seems correct.

However, that seems against the "spirit" of Show No Fear's ability. It seems odd that a card that represents the Ultramarines steeling their revolve could result in Lured by Chaos resolving successfully with no opportunity to avoid its effect.

I was wondering if there was any update as to which of the two approaches above is the correct way to play this card interaction ?
 
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Genestealer Patriarch
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Option 1 is still correct. The marine player cannot choose a unit to rout in order to avoid the effect. Hence he might not want to choose "Show No Fear" if he knows that the chaos player might play "Lure of Chaos".

Away from the mechanics of the rules, if you want to think of this in terms of the background:

Lure of Chaos is an attempt to "corrupt" some of the forces on the opposite side. The extra dice is the offer of power for some of them throwing their lot in with Chaos. The unit in question is riven with infighting (routed) whilst they deal with the heretics in their midst.

So by playing Show No Fear, the marines are being super brave and loyal, and none of them will succumb to such trickery, even if it is in their interest in the battle. Space Marines are like that in this universe, loyal no matter what...

The free cultist that Chaos gets otherwise, is to give the enemy an extra reason to take the bargain. Generally speaking it isn't worth it to lose all the morale of a unit to get one more dice, but it is to avoid Chaos getting 2 morale and another body to take hits.
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Control Denied
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Jasta wrote:
Question about the combat upgrade Chaos United from my first play.

"Your opponent may choose and rout 1 of his units. If they do not, gain a die (of your choice of value)

The basic scenario for the card is pretty obvious. If I play Chaos United on an opponent with unrouted units and no extenuating circumstances. If they don't rout a unit, I get a die of my choice. Seems pretty simple.

Scenario 2 is slightly more confusing.
If I play Chaos United on an opponent with nothing but routed units:

a) They choose to rout one of their units so I don't get a dice. The routed unit cannot be routed again so nothing happens.
b) They are unable to choose a unit to rout because they're all routed, so I get a dice.

Scenario 3 is trickier still.
I play Chaos United on a Space Marine player who has played Show No Fear. "During this execution round your units cannot be routed."

a) They choose to rout one of their units to be routed so I don't get a dice. That unit cannot be routed because it's immune so nothing happens.
b) They cannot choose to rout a unit because their units cannot be routed, so I get a dice.


They way I played was B in both cases. Mainly because it seems to contrast with how Khorne's Rage is worded.

"Your opponent chooses and routs 1 of his units unless he spends (shield)"

To me the sticking point is 'may' and the target of the option. The only option for Khorne's Rage is to pay the shield or not. If that doesn't happen they have to try and rout a unit, regardless of whether that is effective or not.

With Chaos United... the option is on routing a unit or not. They can try to rout a unit, if they can - no free dice. If they can't - even if they try... you get a free dice.

Is this correct?


Yes. Man, I wish someone at Fantasy Flight Games instituted template to their cards. This ad hoc manner of describing effects makes it difficult to understand whether there is a nuance to the effect or whether you are making mountains out of molehills.
 
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Samuel Bailey
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denyeverything wrote:


Yes. Man, I wish someone at Fantasy Flight Games instituted template to their cards. This ad hoc manner of describing effects makes it difficult to understand whether there is a nuance to the effect or whether you are making mountains out of molehills.

Oh there was templating. I had a whole document filled with various wordings to try and be as consistent as possible. But when you have 3 designers on a game and it goes through several editing committees, sometimes things get changed inconsistently. While some things become a lot easier with more people, consistent wording isn't one of them!
 
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