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Subject: Played at Gencon, not for me rss

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Chris Reynolds
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Six of us played games at GenCon, and each had the same reaction: it wasn't the game for us.

Our backgrounds:
1. Boardgamers primarily, some more deep in the hobby than others
2. All enjoy Magic, some much more than others though none of us are regular players lately. One of our group was formerly top 50 in Indiana
3. Half of the group are regular Hearthstone players
4. I played the original Vs. CCG way back when, and enjoyed it
5. None of us have a ton of time for gaming, so we gravitate toward elegant but deep games

Overall, we all agreed the game was far too "fiddly" with (low quality) tokens and flipping cards, which ultimately makes the game too complicated/inelegant. From my (very rusty, again very rusty) memory of the original game, this new version actually seems more complicated, which surprises me based on the designer's comments leading up to this release. Anyone else feel the same way, or have a contrasting opinion?

This is not a game we will be pursuing. I'm sure there is more to it than we are giving it credit, but this is the result of each of us playing introductory games. We'll go back to Magic and Hearthstone.
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Ben Barber

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How did you feel the mechanic was of starting with a main personality versus a life point total? Do you feel it ruined the game to not start from a "clear plate". When I read this change I thought it sounded pretty cool and was my main reason for probably buying this game.

I am interested in hearing more about which changes were worse and which ones were better...

Thanks for sharing!
 
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Dustin
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I had the complete opposite reaction. I felt this game is very clean and smooth. Not fiddly at all. Way better than it use to be.
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creynolds6 wrote:
Six of us played games at GenCon, and each had the same reaction: it wasn't the game for us.

Our backgrounds:
1. Boardgamers primarily, some more deep in the hobby than others
2. All enjoy Magic, some much more than others though none of us are regular players lately. One of our group was formerly top 50 in Indiana
3. Half of the group are regular Hearthstone players
4. I played the original Vs. CCG way back when, and enjoyed it
5. None of us have a ton of time for gaming, so we gravitate toward elegant but deep games

Overall, we all agreed the game was far too "fiddly" with (low quality) tokens and flipping cards, which ultimately makes the game too complicated/inelegant. From my (very rusty, again very rusty) memory of the original game, this new version actually seems more complicated, which surprises me based on the designer's comments leading up to this release. Anyone else feel the same way, or have a contrasting opinion?

This is not a game we will be pursuing. I'm sure there is more to it than we are giving it credit, but this is the result of each of us playing introductory games. We'll go back to Magic and Hearthstone.


Lol, the guy who plays hearthstone is bashing the new VS over depth? I'm sorry man, but having played Magic in it's 1st Set, Original VS in ranked matches, Hearthstone still to this day, this card pool has more depth and strategy than any of them did in set #1.

Card flipping has been used in many games, WOW TCG as well, and no, it's not fiddly really at all. I mean, guess that's subjective, but cards being your primary component, having to flip them would be like complaining about having to move your meeples in lords of waterdeep. It's a great mechanic that serves it's purpose and is in no way fiddly. Also, I would rather have flimsy tokens, then have to remember all the math from the original or from Magic (the most fiddly convoluted game to date).

Having played both extensively, I can say in no way should anyone think it is MORE complicated. The terms were simplified, the game is now balanced and flows far better. The past format made less thematic sense and had far too high a barrier of entry, the row rules were terrible, everything is far better and simpler this time around.

But I suppose without time to play games, Hearthstone is a better choice since it's geared for everyone ages 8+, thus the complexity and time commitment are far less. But no, this was and has not been anyone else I know's experience. But then again, most people I know that are playing this played the original VS heavily so they most likely have a stronger grasp on the differences, complexity, etc.

Sorry it isn't for you :/ Hate to not have more VS players out there!
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Captain Peach
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barberbp wrote:
How did you feel the mechanic was of starting with a main personality versus a life point total? Do you feel it ruined the game to not start from a "clear plate". When I read this change I thought it sounded pretty cool and was my main reason for probably buying this game.

I am interested in hearing more about which changes were worse and which ones were better...

Thanks for sharing!


It's more thematic, and a nice hook on the game. Now, when playing, if I say, know how your main levels up, I may play differently knowing that. I play far less aggressive vs the Hulk than I do Magneto for instance. Makes for far different plays just by switching up the main character.
The team "endurance" was hated by most of us VS legacy players, it was not thematic at all and was pretty much like trying to copy magics 20 life point total where you were a summoner of heroes and villains. A much needed change.

The row simplification was a work of art. Simplify it like they did and now the front row is simply like a "taunt" mechanic. Works well and I have found it is VERY easy to teach.

The not playing from the resource row makes the games play far faster, which we all like, and the locations triggering powers is really fun, especially when you have character in hand that can refresh said locations.

Plot twists not costing resources is great, because in the old meta, when you were saving X amount, I could guess based on your deck what card it was, similar to the way when you play a blue deck in magic, people know you are saving mana to counter them. Now I find genuine surprise when I get them played against me.

Above all though, the old VS system became very unbalanced, and due to their experience with Legendary, it is clear Upper Deck now has figured out a method to balancing that works more in our and their favor.

Overall, I cannot wait for more on this game
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J Walker
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But that was never how plot twists worked. You only had to control resources equal to their cost and then you could plaY them either from the hand or resource row. Sure, you could guess what they were going to play based on their deck (it was always the dinosaur card anyway) but never by the cost. Because it didn't work like that.
 
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J Young
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cjpeach2004 wrote:

Card flipping has been used in many games, WOW TCG as well, and no, it's not fiddly really at all. I mean, guess that's subjective, but cards being your primary component, having to flip them would be like complaining about having to move your meeples in lords of waterdeep.


Card flipping is not fiddly. Flipping the card to stun a character, putting the wound token on the character, removing the damage token, flipping the card back over to recover the character, and putting the wound token back on the character is fiddly.

While this may be fiddly, in may not necessarily be bad. In the original VS System, players could (normally) only recover one character and players had to decide which one character to recover. The new system takes that decision away from the player.
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Jon Fox
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is there any reason you can't "tap" a character rather than flipping the card?
 
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Jason Walker
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I just keep the wounds next to the character. That way, they don't get in the way of flipping. And the only one who can hold more than one wound token are the main characters, so it rarely seems to get in the way when changing formation.
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fozzy fosbourne
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I expect that I'll use some black glass beads or something to represent flipped cards. $3 life hacks gooooooo
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J Young
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miso2002 wrote:
is there any reason you can't "tap" a character rather than flipping the card?


Exhausting or tapping a character is already used for attacking so a different mechanic needs to be used to represent stun.
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Masked Guido
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I have a similar background as described by the OP and I found the game fast paced and smooth. I was able to teach the game to my Magic group within a few minutes and most of them love it.

My only complaint is the quality of the tokens. I prefer using dice when able anyways.
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Dustin
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MaskedGuido wrote:
I have a similar background as described by the OP and I found the game fast paced and smooth. I was able to teach the game to my Magic group within a few minutes and most of them love it.

My only complaint is the quality of the tokens. I prefer using dice when able anyways.


Yeah the tokens really are crap
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C. E. Freeman
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SeerMagic wrote:
MaskedGuido wrote:
I have a similar background as described by the OP and I found the game fast paced and smooth. I was able to teach the game to my Magic group within a few minutes and most of them love it.

My only complaint is the quality of the tokens. I prefer using dice when able anyways.


Yeah the tokens really are crap


Strangely, I didn't mind the tokens at all, though they are small and thin. My biggest gripe was that the card stock felt thin, especially after handling the cards from Ashes. Fortunately, sleeving the cards alleviates the problem for the most part.
 
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Andrew Smith
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Tacullu64 wrote:
Strangely, I didn't mind the tokens at all, though they are small and thin. My biggest gripe was that the card stock felt thin, especially after handling the cards from Ashes[...].


Agreed. The chits are of poor quality, and the card stock is below average in my opinion. Which is kind of surprising to me considering the fact that I only paid $10 (retail) for UDE's other game, Legendary. That extra $10 brought me 150 (almost 40%) more cards with better card stock, a game board and numerous themed cardboard dividers.

I've tried and failed to reconcile the two games' price points with their respective component quality and quantity. The only reasonable conclusion I have been able to reach is that the Vs. System 2PCG is a huge cash grab.




 
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TheMightyKong wrote:
Tacullu64 wrote:
Strangely, I didn't mind the tokens at all, though they are small and thin. My biggest gripe was that the card stock felt thin, especially after handling the cards from Ashes[...].


Agreed. The chits are of poor quality, and the card stock is below average in my opinion. Which is kind of surprising to me considering the fact that I only paid $10 (retail) for UDE's other game, Legendary. That extra $10 brought me 150 (almost 40%) more cards with better card stock, a game board and numerous themed cardboard dividers.

I've tried and failed to reconcile the two games' price points with their respective component quality and quantity. The only reasonable conclusion I have been able to reach is that the Vs. System 2PCG is a huge cash grab.






This is more ignorance to how manufacturing and printing work. Cards are shuffled more often in a "Deck Building Game" than in a dueling card game. Simple mistake, but one people often forget. Also note, the amount of cards in Legendary, 30 are wounds, same art through each, 30 are bystanders, same art for these as well, and there is 40 Shield Officers and 20 Shield Troopers along with 30 Maria Hills so... Not a cash grab at all, when looking at the pricing based on "Unique Cards", the two are VERY comparable.

As for the tokens? Well sure, they are cheap, but so were those chits for Shards in Guardians of the Galaxy Legendary Expansion.
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TravelSized wrote:
I just keep the wounds next to the character. That way, they don't get in the way of flipping. And the only one who can hold more than one wound token are the main characters, so it rarely seems to get in the way when changing formation.


This is a simple and easy solution to a problem a ton of people will complain about anyways Thank you for being a voice of reason.
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Jason Walker
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cjpeach2004 wrote:
TheMightyKong wrote:
Tacullu64 wrote:
Strangely, I didn't mind the tokens at all, though they are small and thin. My biggest gripe was that the card stock felt thin, especially after handling the cards from Ashes[...].


Agreed. The chits are of poor quality, and the card stock is below average in my opinion. Which is kind of surprising to me considering the fact that I only paid $10 (retail) for UDE's other game, Legendary. That extra $10 brought me 150 (almost 40%) more cards with better card stock, a game board and numerous themed cardboard dividers.

I've tried and failed to reconcile the two games' price points with their respective component quality and quantity. The only reasonable conclusion I have been able to reach is that the Vs. System 2PCG is a huge cash grab.






This is more ignorance to how manufacturing and printing work. Cards are shuffled more often in a "Deck Building Game" than in a dueling card game. Simple mistake, but one people often forget. Also note, the amount of cards in Legendary, 30 are wounds, same art through each, 30 are bystanders, same art for these as well, and there is 40 Shield Officers and 20 Shield Troopers along with 30 Maria Hills so... Not a cash grab at all, when looking at the pricing based on "Unique Cards", the two are VERY comparable.


Also, the art in VS is reused from comics which ends up being more expensive than hiring someone to do the art like they do for Legendary.
 
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I don't think that's true, Mr. Walker. I don't believe Marvel artists get residuals like DC artists do, so that "pre-existing" art should be free to use.
 
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Jason Walker
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Wouldn't they need to pay Marvel (or someone) for it? There has to some cost associated with it, right? Otherwise why would they purchase new art for Legendary?
 
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They thought original art would look better.
 
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TravelSized wrote:
Wouldn't they need to pay Marvel (or someone) for it? There has to some cost associated with it, right? Otherwise why would they purchase new art for Legendary?


This is correct. Marvel Artists get paid more than those at DC, which is why Oliver Coipel loves it so much. he also gets royalties whenever his art is used for T-Shirts and the like.
 
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Gerald Robinson
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I also found the game rather dull and uninteresting. It suffers from a similar issue as the original Vs. did, which is that playing within a team/faction is always more important than being creative in your deck building. Team attacks and team modifiers are too important.
 
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branwheat wrote:
I also found the game rather dull and uninteresting. It suffers from a similar issue as the original Vs. did, which is that playing within a team/faction is always more important than being creative in your deck building. Team attacks and team modifiers are too important.


Saying something like that based on a single pool of cards is silly. No different than me saying that about Ashes. Also, deck builders suffer a similar thing to what you are saying and yet are still loved by many.
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branwheat wrote:
I also found the game rather dull and uninteresting. It suffers from a similar issue as the original Vs. did, which is that playing within a team/faction is always more important than being creative in your deck building. Team attacks and team modifiers are too important.


I disagree. While it is good in certain decks, this is not true of all decks in fact to build a good deck I would have to say that the only real problem is that every good deck needs to run certain heroes from Guardians of the Galaxy. Staying in one faction is not as powerful as one would think actually. To further proves this look at the winning deck list from Gen Con they all have characters from at least three different factions.
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