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Subject: King making rss

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Lior Kiperman
Israel
Ramat Gan
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Is there a king making in this game?

That is, a player cannot win, but his actions can decide which other player will be the winner.
 
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Alison Mandible
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I can think of two relevant bits of kingmaking:

1) The first two players in turn order have both forged their 4th item, so the game is about to end. The third player to craft only has 2 items, but can copy/steal either of the two items the other players already forged. That third player can't win, but she can outright decide which other player will win. This would be painful, but has never happened to me and seems relatively unlikely. (It would require a somewhat unusual set of Craft cards, where the same losing player could easily beat two different high-difficulty ones, and would mean both of the maybe-winning players had planned badly.)

2) A player who visits the Black Market is deciding which Gather card to dismiss from the display, and the other players have different (and obvious) preferences about which card to have dismissed. This happens a little bit in many games, but it usually doesn't feel like 'pure' kingmaking (i.e. if I'm the one visiting the Black Market, there might be a card which is GREAT for opponent A, and another which is clearly opponent B's first pick for her next turn but is not that crucial to her; I'll dismiss the card opponent A needs).

Also, in this second example, it's the Gather phase, which means that no matter how far behind I am, I'm not *certain* to lose and nobody else is yet *certain* to win, because we don't know how crafting will go this round.
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Lior Kiperman
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I was talking about the first situation. I'm glad that it's very unlikely.
 
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Zach Osterloh
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grasa_total wrote:
2) A player who visits the Black Market is deciding which Gather card to dismiss from the display, and the other players have different (and obvious) preferences about which card to have dismissed. This happens a little bit in many games, but it usually doesn't feel like 'pure' kingmaking (i.e. if I'm the one visiting the Black Market, there might be a card which is GREAT for opponent A, and another which is clearly opponent B's first pick for her next turn but is not that crucial to her; I'll dismiss the card opponent A needs).


I saw a similar situation play out in a four player game. All four of us had crafted three items, but one player didn't have the dice to craft a fourth this round. She used a gather card (I forget which one it is) to steal a magic die from her husband that he had to have to craft a high numbered fourth item and gave him a bunch of metal dice. So she took him out of the final round completely. Not true king making, but it narrowed the field.
 
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Nick Sibicky

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As others have pointed out, there are (unfortunately) situations in which king-making is possible. But they are not usually present in the majority of games.
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Dann May
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Would a fix (not that it really needs it) be to say if a player has two steal choices, they take the higher ranked card? Usually that's what you'd do if you were still in the game.
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Alison Mandible
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Jumpseat wrote:
Would a fix (not that it really needs it) be to say if a player has two steal choices, they take the higher ranked card? Usually that's what you'd do if you were still in the game.


In my experience, if you have a choice of two things to steal, it's via die manipulation. So once you've messed with all the die faces, you're only eligible to steal one of them, it's just that you could have done the manipulation differently to steal the other one. So to invoke this rule, you'd have to prove to the player that they COULD steal both of them, before they'd actually used their manipulation abilities. I suspect that cure would be worse than the disease.
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Jonathan Franklin
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It might be useful to have a base rule when starting:

1. If your position relative to other players will not change by stealing, you may not steal.

or

2. If you can steal, you must.

The latter is hard to enforce, as it often requires gathering certain cards to optimize the chance of being able to steal, which has ripples of its own.

Last night, two players had 3 items and one player had 1 (bad luck). P1 & P2 each got a fourth item. P3 could steal from P2, but not P1. If P3 does not steal, P2 wins. If P3 does steal, P1 wins.
 
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Ben Neff

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grandslam wrote:
It might be useful to have a base rule when starting:

1. If your position relative to other players will not change by stealing, you may not steal.

or

2. If you can steal, you must.

The latter is hard to enforce, as it often requires gathering certain cards to optimize the chance of being able to steal, which has ripples of its own.

Last night, two players had 3 items and one player had 1 (bad luck). P1 & P2 each got a fourth item. P3 could steal from P2, but not P1. If P3 does not steal, P2 wins. If P3 does steal, P1 wins.


I'd say the results in this situation will hinge upon how much P3 likes P1 and P2, relatively.

Seriously though, if I was P3 I would just not steal, but I don';t think there needs to be a rule about it. Each gaming group to their own on that, of course.
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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For what it's worth, I'm generally pretty sensitive about kingmaking, and I didn't find it to be problematic in my 14 plays of KF. Yes, it can happen. But it wasn't common or obvious enough to bother me.
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