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Subject: Foraging, Cooperation and order of eating rss

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Jason
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According to another thread, it's confirmed that in the 2nd ed cooperation activates foraging. But my question is more involved than that. Let's say I had these three species:

Species 1: Cooperation, Foraging
Species 2: Cooperation, Foraging
Species 3: Cooperation, Foraging, Fat Tissue

Assume max population for this question.

Which of these are correct?

Option 1:
Species 1 takes 1 food and forages for 1 food.
Species 2 cooperates for 2 food and forages for 2 food.
Species 3 cooperates for 4 food and forages for 4 food (2 goes on Fat Tissue).
Total food taken: 14

Option 2:
Species 1 takes 1 food and forages for 1 food.
Species 2 cooperates for 1 food and forages for 1 food.
Species 3 cooperates for 1 food and forages for 1 food.
Total food taken: 6

I THINK the first one is correct, but people were really looking at me strange when I took so much food just on ONE food action (okay, it wasn't exactly this much because I didn't have fat tissue and the middle guy didn't actually have foraging). But I did have over 93 points at the end of the game compared the the next highest having about half that.
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John Connor
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Your option 1 is how we played it. In fact, it seems like that creates a race to get foraging+cooperation+defense, then spending cards to re-populate when there's a food shortage.

This has made me a bit frustrated with the game, when it feels like it simplifies this way. The occasional carnivore wanders through, chews a few bits up, then they're re-born in much the same way as defenses are rearranged.
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Dan Cain
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Option 2 is correct. Foraging isn't another feeding (which it seems to me you are using as your logic to take so much food). Foraging just allows you to take an extra food token when the species take food from the watering hole.
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Jon Pessano
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All,

We played as option 2.

Thx
jonpfl
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Ariel
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Option 2, DEFINITIVELY!!!

Your 1rst one misunderstand the rules.
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J Kaemmer
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Just adding to consensus. Option 2. Foraging and cooperation share a trigger taking food from the water8ng hole, foraging just increases the amount, it does not initiate a second feeding.
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David A
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Likewise. Option 2. Foraging and cooperation aren't cumulative effects as the chain progresses.
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Jason
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lastalchemist wrote:
Option 2 is correct. Foraging isn't another feeding (which it seems to me you are using as your logic to take so much food). Foraging just allows you to take an extra food token when the species take food from the watering hole.


Chango wrote:

Option 2, DEFINITIVELY!!!

Your 1rst one misunderstand the rules.


iswearihaveajob wrote:
Just adding to consensus. Option 2. Foraging and cooperation share a trigger taking food from the water8ng hole, foraging just increases the amount, it does not initiate a second feeding.


Thud105 wrote:
Likewise. Option 2. Foraging and cooperation aren't cumulative effects as the chain progresses.


Could any of you folks point to any actual places/phrases in the book that address this?

Here's the text from the rules for each

Cooperation:
Anytime this species takes food, if you have a species to the right of it, that species takes 1 food of the same type (Plant or Meat) from the same source (Watering Hole or Food Bank). This means Cooperation will get triggered by traits such as Long Neck, Scavenger, Intelligence, and even another Cooperation (but not Fat Tissue).

Foraging:
This species takes 1 additional Plant Food from the same source (Watering Hold or Food Bank) anytime it takes Plant Food (unless it does not have enough Population to take the additional food). Foraging can be triggered by other traits such as Cooperation, Long Neck, or Intelligence.

This is how the rules are written (bolding added by me). Cooperation and Foraging don't trigger off of "feeding." Their trigger is simply "anytime this species takes food". Very specifically, they BOTH say "anytime". And foraging specifically says "takes 1 additional Plant Food". A species takes food. Cooperation triggers anytime this species takes food.

The 2nd ed rules clearly state that Cooperation will trigger Foraging. Which means yes, if you have a species with a Cooperation the species to the right has a Foraging card, that species will take 2 food, not 1.

So that's not a question that's up in the air. The question is whether the left species doing it's Foraging will trigger the Cooperation card a second time. Unfortunately, Cooperation doesn't specifically state it does or doesn't, but it says "Cooperation will get triggered by traits such as (etc)". All the traits are traits that cause a species to take food ("take" is a very specific wording in the rules that drive a lot of the game.) "Take" is how the Foraging card and Cooperation card are both worded. Note that it specifically says Cooperation isn't triggered by Fat Tissue. This is because Fat Tissue's card specifically words it such that you aren't "taking" food, you are "moving" it.

I get that a lot of people have opinions on whether it "should" or "shouldn't" work a certain way. But I'd like to see the actual place in the rules where they're interpreting that from. Of course, it would be great for the designer to weight in. It's certainly a VERY profitable chain to set up and hence why I'm posting here. I would very much get behind them putting something in the rules next printing and an official errata that says "Each Cooperation card can be triggered at most one time per player turn.".

Or possibly different wording to Cooperation that says "Anytime this species takes 1 or more food". And maybe Foraging putting in a qualifier like "This species immediately takes 1 additional Plant food". These might make it clear that the species with the Cooperation card has to grab both of the food chits simultaneously, and then AFTER that, the Cooperation card kicks in since species 1 "takes 1 or more food". Does that make sense? Because I think the confusion is in how you actually take the food. As a big lump or as separate take actions.
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Jason Reid
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I think that you have to consider the "takes one additional" food from Foraging to be the same "taking" event as the original event that led to the foraging.

Otherwise, if you interpret the additional food as a separate "take", then Foraging would chain itself, which I think is clearly not intended.
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John Connor
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The closest thing I can see to a clarification is that the Foraging card says "eats [...] food", which is distinct from "takes food". It might be intended that eats==feeds, which is a distinct step in the rules.

But then the expanded description in the rulebook for Foraging revert to "takes food" as you showed.

Calling Dominic...
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Byron S
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As Jason said, the Foraging bonus is not a separate "taking food" action. "Additional" food is added to the total taken, which is still just one "take food".

Also, Cooperation does not say "Anytime this species takes a food": that would imply your first option. "Anytime this species takes food" is the same as "Anytime this species takes 1 or more food".

ex:
Species 1: Cooperation, Foraging
Species 2: Cooperation, Foraging
Species 3: Cooperation, Foraging, Fat Tissue

Species 1 takes 1 food from the watering hole, and gets one additional food from Foraging.
This triggers species 1's Cooperation, so species 2 takes 1 food from the watering hole, and gets an additional food from Foraging.
This triggers species 2's Cooperation, so species 3 takes 1 food from the watering hole and gets an additional food from Foraging.
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Jason
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jasonwocky wrote:
Otherwise, if you interpret the additional food as a separate "take", then Foraging would chain itself, which I think is clearly not intended.


A particularly excellent point. Others raised some good ones, too. BTW, I bring this discussion up not just to justify my own play or to want "my" way to be the right way. Whatever way it's supposed to be, I want to have a clear reasoning that comes out of the rules and that I can teach with clarity. If I have to go beyond the language of the rules, it's better to have a broad role to teach ("you feed ALL the food to an animal when you take a feeding action, then you move to the next animal affected") than special case ones (" when it says _______ on Foraging, what it really means is _______.")
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Steve
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Had this rule issue as well, last night. Last time it was asked on BGG rules forum the answer said they'd clear it up when the rules solidified.
 
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Jason
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garysax wrote:
Had this rule issue as well, last night. Last time it was asked on BGG rules forum the answer said they'd clear it up when the rules solidified.


If this is the cleared up version, I'd hate to see the previous edition.

(That actually sounds harsher than I mean it. In general, I find the 2nd Ed rules to be very well written!)
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Ariel
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jepmn wrote:
garysax wrote:
Had this rule issue as well, last night. Last time it was asked on BGG rules forum the answer said they'd clear it up when the rules solidified.

If this is the cleared up version, I'd hate to see the previous edition.
(That actually sounds harsher than I mean it. In general, I find the 2nd Ed rules to be very well written!)

The first edition is also well written, I understand it perfectly even been a spanish native speaker.

The principal difference between them is the new color code in the cards and some traits characteristics changed.
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David J
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Great discussion; this may of interest. In another thread,

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/20032229#20032229,

Dominic mentioned that the player aid included in the 2nd ed. has not been updated from the 1st ed.... therefore, the writing on the CARDS trumps the writing on the PLAYER AID (nothing was said there about the RULEBOOK). Then, I expressed shock. Now, this might be playing out in a concrete example. I don't have the game in front of me, but if there is a difference of wording on the player aid and the cards for Cooperation and/or Foraging, that might explain some of the confusion.

This occurred to me when I read this:

th3tick wrote:
The closest thing I can see to a clarification is that the Foraging card says "eats [...] food", which is distinct from "takes food". It might be intended that eats==feeds, which is a distinct step in the rules.

But then the expanded description in the rulebook for Foraging revert to "takes food" as you showed.


...but I would have to go through the entire thread and compare it to the cards and player aids to see how this is impacting the discussion; whether some are quoting the player aid or not, assuming they are all worded the same.
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Andrew Watson
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Trinket Magpie wrote:
Great discussion; this may of interest. In another thread,

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/20032229#20032229,

Dominic mentioned that the player aid included in the 2nd ed. has not been updated from the 1st ed


I think that what he wrote was that the 2nd ed. player aid will not be available for sale to owners of the 1st ed.

I believe that:
o the player has been updated
o the updated player aid may well be available online

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James Sitz
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I interpreted it as option 2. I did not interpret taking an additional food with Forager as "taking food" again, but rather enhancing the first instance of "taking food."

Cooperation is already strong. Your version is just insane.
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Jason
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Jexik wrote:
Cooperation is already strong. Your version is just insane.


It's not "my" version. It's just my reading of the rules with the assumption that the words chosen (especially in the second revision) were chosen very specifically so you can work the answer out for yourself. I am leaning much more towards the opinion that the words just aren't chosen very precisely for the Foraging card and the whole "take" versus "eat" versus "feed" language could use a major overhaul to make it easier for players to work out the answers.
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David A
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In James' defense, I see it as "your" version because you're the only person I've ever heard interpret the rules in this manner. I think you may be over-interpreting the rules, trying to see something to defend the monstrously OP play that was made. I read through those same rules that you shared and I still simply cannot reach the same conclusion you did.

Here's hoping Dom rolls in on this one soon.
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Jason
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Thud105 wrote:
In James' defense, I see it as "your" version because you're the only person I've ever heard interpret the rules in this manner.


Well, then you need to start saying "yours and John's" (see very second post).

Quote:
I think you may be over-interpreting the rules, trying to see something to defend the monstrously OP play that was made.


I think you're projecting something onto me that isn't there. I wouldn't have posted this in the first place if I wasn't suspicious that we'd played it wrong! I didn't post this in reply to someone else but brought it up out of the blue. I'd be totally fine with Option 2 being the right way. Most importantly, I want a clear way to explain WHY it's that way when I teach new players.

And, btw, I'd much rather have a FUN game that a WINNING game. That chain as set up wasn't fun because players felt I was getting too many points. Oh, and I did forget to mention one other player had the same setup as I did, only with two species so it wasn't nearly as snowballingly profitable.

Quote:
I read through those same rules that you shared and I still simply cannot reach the same conclusion you did.


That's fine. The group I was playing with thought it was wrong, but not because of anything in the actual rules but simply because it was netting me too many points (which I pointed out in the OP). So, again, it wasn't just MY reading of the rules. I'm posting this in hopes of avoiding similar problems in other combos (or expansions).

Quote:
Here's hoping Dom rolls in on this one soon.


I've dropped him a Geekmail.
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John Weier
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It seems pretty straightforward.

Species A takes 2 food when it feeds (1 normal, +1 from Foraging). This is only one instance of species A taking food from the watering hole, it just has a total value of 2 food. The 2 food is taken all at once, not as two separate feedings.

Since species A took food, Cooperation is triggered for species B. It does not matter whether species A took 1 food or 2 food, it was just one instance of feeding, so it only triggers Cooperation once. Thus, species B now gets to take 2 food (1 from Cooperation, +1 from Foraging). Again, this is still just one instance of "taking food" for species B, so only triggers Cooperation once for species C.

The same then follows for species C.
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Jason
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slumcat wrote:
It seems pretty straightforward.

Species A takes 2 food when it feeds (1 normal, +1 from Foraging). This is only one instance of species A taking food from the watering hole, it just has a total value of 2 food. The 2 food is taken all at once, not as two separate feedings.

Since species A took food, Cooperation is triggered for species B. It does not matter whether species A took 1 food or 2 food, it was just one instance of feeding, so it only triggers Cooperation once. Thus, species B now gets to take 2 food (1 from Cooperation, +1 from Foraging). Again, this is still just one instance of "taking food" for species B, so only triggers Cooperation once for species C.

The same then follows for species C.


I don't disagree with you. This is pretty much what I suggested would be the better way to teach it ("you feed ALL the food to an animal when you take a feeding action, then you move to the next animal affected").
 
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Byron S
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jepmn wrote:
I don't disagree with you. This is pretty much what I suggested would be the better way to teach it ("you feed ALL the food to an animal when you take a feeding action, then you move to the next animal affected").

Unfortunately, I don't think it's that simple in general, just with Foraging. For example, with a set of species like:

Species 1: Cooperation, Scavenger
Species 2: Cooperation, Scavenger
Species 3: Scavenger

In this case, after a carnivore attack:
Species 1 Scavenges, and Species 2 and Species 3 get food from Cooperation
Species 2 scavenges, and Species 3 gets food from Cooperation
Finally, Species 3 scavenges.

Total eaten:
Species 1: 1
Species 2: 2
Species 3: 3

Each Scavenging is a separate 'take food', so triggers separately.

If you want to generalize, I'd say resolve each 'take food' action independently, with the understanding the Foraging isn't a separate 'take food'.
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Jason
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runtsta wrote:
If you want to generalize, I'd say resolve each 'take food' action independently, with the understanding the Foraging isn't a separate 'take food'.


Good example. Though I'm not sure if people would agree that Species 3 gets 3 food and would say it only gets 2 food. Heck, I'm not sure what *I* think about this case. Going to have to digest if for a bit (badum-tish).

Even worse is if Species 1 is the carnivore doing the attacking. Or if Species 2 or 3 were, even! (Ow, my brain.)

runtsta wrote:
If you want to generalize, I'd say resolve each 'take food' action independently, with the understanding the Foraging isn't a separate 'take food'.


Yeah, it would help if Foraging simply took off the "take" language altogether and just said "increases by 1 plant food" or something.
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