Recommend
13 
 Thumb up
 Hide
45 Posts
Prev «  1 , 2  | 

Board Game: Evolution
Evolution» Forums » Rules

Subject: Foraging, Cooperation and order of eating rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Byron S
United States
Ventura
California
flag msg tools
I don't remember what I ate last night
badge
but I can spout off obscure rules to all sorts of games like nobody's business!
Avatar
Microbadge: Aeon's End fanMicrobadge: Evolution fanMicrobadge: Root fanMicrobadge: Oceans fanMicrobadge: L.A. Lakers fan
Species 2 does get 2 food. I'll edit my previous post for clarity.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
United States
Brooklyn Center
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
runtsta wrote:
Species 2 does get 2 food. I'll edit my previous post for clarity.
S'okay, I really should have said "Species 3" rather than "Species 2". Editing mine as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
United States
Brooklyn Center
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
runtsta wrote:
jepmn wrote:
I don't disagree with you. This is pretty much what I suggested would be the better way to teach it ("you feed ALL the food to an animal when you take a feeding action, then you move to the next animal affected").
Unfortunately, I don't think it's that simple in general, just with Foraging. For example, with a set of species like:

Species 1: Cooperation, Scavenger
Species 2: Cooperation, Scavenger
Species 3: Scavenger

In this case, after a carnivore attack:
Species 1 Scavenges, and Species 2 and Species 3 get food from Cooperation
Species 2 scavenges, and Species 3 gets food from Cooperation
Finally, Species 3 scavenges.

Total eaten:
Species 1: 1
Species 2: 2
Species 3: 3

Each Scavenging is a separate 'take food', so triggers separately.

If you want to generalize, I'd say resolve each 'take food' action independently, with the understanding the Foraging isn't a separate 'take food'.
The more I think about this example, the more it bothers me, thematically. Well, not precisely this example but a similar one:

Species 1: Cooperation, Scavenger
Species 2: Carnivore, Scavenger

Species 2 attacks another player's species. By the above logic, they take 1 food then 1 more food for Scavenging. Then Species 1 takes 1 food from Scavenging and passes an additional 1 food off to Species 2.

Now, I get that sometimes you have to gloss over certain thematic irregularities, but it seems really peculiar that Species 2 both scavenges the leftovers from the kill and another scavenger scavenges and magically produces an extra food from the twice-picked over corpse to give Species 2.

It just seems deeply weird and something that (like my original example for the thread) would get you some very hard stares from across the table.

On the other hand, if you went with the "a species takes ALL the food it can in one action and then it's done taking food", it would also have the handy side-benefit of being better thematically. Some members of Species 2 goes first, makes the kill and at the same time other members of Species 2 scavenge the corpses, for a total of 2 food. Then Species 1 comes along and scavenges the corpses. But then Species 1 has already eaten and left so they don't get extra food.

I'm not saying this is what the RULES say (because I'm honestly unsure of what the "real" handling of this is supposed to be), but it sure seems a lot easier to wrap your brain around.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Byron S
United States
Ventura
California
flag msg tools
I don't remember what I ate last night
badge
but I can spout off obscure rules to all sorts of games like nobody's business!
Avatar
Microbadge: Aeon's End fanMicrobadge: Evolution fanMicrobadge: Root fanMicrobadge: Oceans fanMicrobadge: L.A. Lakers fan
The amount of food that can be generated by Cooperation and Scavenging together can get rather ridiculous, particularly when the original target of the Carnivore is small. I've considered making a house rule that limits the total amount of scavenged food off a kill based on the target's body size, but I'm concerned about balance issues.

jepmn wrote:
Species 1: Cooperation, Scavenger
Species 2: Carnivore, Scavenger

Species 2 attacks another player's species. By the above logic, they take (body size) food then 1 more food for Scavenging. Then Species 1 takes 1 food from Scavenging and passes an additional 1 food off to Species 2.
Rules-wise, this is correct. The thematic pairing of Cooperation and Scavenger in general is weird, and it can be disconcerting to feed your Carnivore 1 or 2 food, and somehow 6 or 8 food is magically generated for everyone else at the table.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
MD
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
North Star Games designs party games that don't suck! Play them with your non-gamer friends over the holidays.
badge
First there was Hearts, then there was Spades, and now we bring you Clubs. The suit of clubs finally gets some respect!
Avatar
Microbadge: Oceans fanMicrobadge: Evolution: Climate fanMicrobadge: Evolution fanMicrobadge: AcquireMicrobadge: The Neverland Rescue
Jason -

Just like others have been trying to tell you. Foraging does not trigger another Take Food action. That's why it says whenever a Take Food action is initiated that takes Plant food, take an "addition" Plant food from the same source.

Best,
Dominic
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
United States
Brooklyn Center
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
domcrap wrote:
Jason -

Just like others have been trying to tell you. Foraging does not trigger another Take Food action. That's why it says whenever a Take Food action is initiated that takes Plant food, take an "addition" Plant food from the same source.

Best,
Dominic
I think if you read all the messages in the thread, Dominic, you'd see we're all pretty much on the same page by now. The more pertinent question is about a better way to explain this than the fuzzy language currently on the cards and in the manual. Also, the other points that have been brought up about scavenging and cooperation could use some addressing, as they really tie into that need for clarity.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
MD
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
North Star Games designs party games that don't suck! Play them with your non-gamer friends over the holidays.
badge
First there was Hearts, then there was Spades, and now we bring you Clubs. The suit of clubs finally gets some respect!
Avatar
Microbadge: Oceans fanMicrobadge: Evolution: Climate fanMicrobadge: Evolution fanMicrobadge: AcquireMicrobadge: The Neverland Rescue
Byron is right in the above post regarding Scavenger.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
United States
Brooklyn Center
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
domcrap wrote:
Byron is right in the above post regarding Scavenger.
Thanks for weighing in. Good to know the official ruling, even if it makes the game a lot more complicated to explain.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
MD
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
North Star Games designs party games that don't suck! Play them with your non-gamer friends over the holidays.
badge
First there was Hearts, then there was Spades, and now we bring you Clubs. The suit of clubs finally gets some respect!
Avatar
Microbadge: Oceans fanMicrobadge: Evolution: Climate fanMicrobadge: Evolution fanMicrobadge: AcquireMicrobadge: The Neverland Rescue
jepmn wrote:
domcrap wrote:
Byron is right in the above post regarding Scavenger.
Thanks for weighing in. Good to know the official ruling, even if it makes the game a lot more complicated to explain.
Jason - Just play the game how ever you want. My goal was to make it easy to explain. If we did a poor job, then please change the rules to suit your tastes. Thanks.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David J
United States
Waterville
Maine
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: BirdwatcherMicrobadge: Star Trek fanMicrobadge: "Made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs."Microbadge: Battlestar Galactica fanMicrobadge: Asteroids fan
AndAgainMA wrote:
Trinket Magpie wrote:
Great discussion; this may of interest. In another thread,

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/20032229#20032229,

Dominic mentioned that the player aid included in the 2nd ed. has not been updated from the 1st ed
I think that what he wrote was that the 2nd ed. player aid will not be available for sale to owners of the 1st ed.

I believe that:
o the player has been updated
o the updated player aid may well be available online

Well, that would certainly make more sense, so I hope that's it. And FWIW, I checked the player aid and it didn't have any differences for the cards in question. Just to tie up that loose end.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David J
United States
Waterville
Maine
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: BirdwatcherMicrobadge: Star Trek fanMicrobadge: "Made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs."Microbadge: Battlestar Galactica fanMicrobadge: Asteroids fan
One of the things that makes Evolution such a great game is the card interactions. This thread reminds me of the early days of Magic, when the proliferation of card interactions required successive rulings by the designers, because the grammar and keywords of the rules took several iterations to hammer out. Now, Evolution has nowhere near as many cards as a CCG, of course, but there are still enough to generate some interactions that make you go, Whoa.

I am glad the OP brought this up, and appreciate his willingness to stick to his guns and attempt to keep the conversation a debate about the rules and the wording, using arguments based on the wording of the rules to try to interpret the rules. It's too bad that 1 or 2 misunderstood his intentions, despite his repeated demonstrations to the contrary. As with constitutions and religious texts, so too with rulebooks: just because you don't see ambiguity doesn't mean it isn't there.
10 
 Thumb up
5.50
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Germann
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Microbadge: 5 Year Geek VeteranMicrobadge: Dominion fanMicrobadge: Shadowrun RPG fanMicrobadge: Xbox One fan
domcrap wrote:
jepmn wrote:
domcrap wrote:
Byron is right in the above post regarding Scavenger.
Thanks for weighing in. Good to know the official ruling, even if it makes the game a lot more complicated to explain.
Jason - Just play the game how ever you want. My goal was to make it easy to explain. If we did a poor job, then please change the rules to suit your tastes. Thanks.
As this was posted a while ago, is there an official errata anywhere stating this. This discussion was done in multiple threads and this is the first time I found an official answer that addresses it clearly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
MD
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
North Star Games designs party games that don't suck! Play them with your non-gamer friends over the holidays.
badge
First there was Hearts, then there was Spades, and now we bring you Clubs. The suit of clubs finally gets some respect!
Avatar
Microbadge: Oceans fanMicrobadge: Evolution: Climate fanMicrobadge: Evolution fanMicrobadge: AcquireMicrobadge: The Neverland Rescue
I don't think there is an errata, but maybe I'm not sure what you're referring to.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David J
United States
Waterville
Maine
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: BirdwatcherMicrobadge: Star Trek fanMicrobadge: "Made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs."Microbadge: Battlestar Galactica fanMicrobadge: Asteroids fan
I think by 'errata', he means official ruling. I.e., you gave a 'right' answer on this thread to a question about the rules; this will be interpreted by some as an official, canonical interpretation of the rules. But will this "ruling" be supplied/posted anywhere else beyond this thread (e.g., Northstar website)? I think that is his question.

I think the question behind the question is, will those people who are interested in "official rulings" of this type need to search for them in these forums, or will they be collected and posted by Northstar somewhere in a more organized way?

(And those are not my questions, but rather just my attempt to clarify, and I could be wrong.)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Doc Jones
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Microbadge: 2016 Platinum SupporterMicrobadge: 2017 Silver SupporterMicrobadge: Evolution fanMicrobadge: Plays Games with SpouseMicrobadge: Duct Tape - I can fix anything!
I do think publishing an errata would be a good idea. While people would still have to go looking for it, it'd be a lot easier to find if all the rulings were gathered into a single publication and posted on the NSG website (and BGG too of course!) than having to trawl through countless forum posts.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
MD
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
North Star Games designs party games that don't suck! Play them with your non-gamer friends over the holidays.
badge
First there was Hearts, then there was Spades, and now we bring you Clubs. The suit of clubs finally gets some respect!
Avatar
Microbadge: Oceans fanMicrobadge: Evolution: Climate fanMicrobadge: Evolution fanMicrobadge: AcquireMicrobadge: The Neverland Rescue
Doc_Jones wrote:
I do think publishing an errata would be a good idea. While people would still have to go looking for it, it'd be a lot easier to find if all the rulings were gathered into a single publication and posted on the NSG website (and BGG too of course!) than having to trawl through countless forum posts.
We plan to put together a forum on our website with an FAQ once we release the digital version of Evolution.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Pessano
United States
Tampa
Florida
flag msg tools
Microbadge: Civilization Computer Game fanMicrobadge: Pearl Jam fanMicrobadge: Tampa Bay Lightning fanMicrobadge: Ultimate Frisbee fanMicrobadge: Gulf Games Convention
domcrap wrote:
Doc_Jones wrote:
I do think publishing an errata would be a good idea. While people would still have to go looking for it, it'd be a lot easier to find if all the rulings were gathered into a single publication and posted on the NSG website (and BGG too of course!) than having to trawl through countless forum posts.
We plan to put together a forum on our website with an FAQ once we release the digital version of Evolution.
Wow, didn't know a digital version was coming. When and what platform?

iOS?

Thx
jonpfl
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
MD
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
North Star Games designs party games that don't suck! Play them with your non-gamer friends over the holidays.
badge
First there was Hearts, then there was Spades, and now we bring you Clubs. The suit of clubs finally gets some respect!
Avatar
Microbadge: Oceans fanMicrobadge: Evolution: Climate fanMicrobadge: Evolution fanMicrobadge: AcquireMicrobadge: The Neverland Rescue
Nothing is set in stone yet. So take this with a grain of salt:

Our end goal is Steam / iOS / Android for both tablet and phone, but our path to get there hasn't been mapped out or even finalized. Phone might not even be possible depending upon how it looks on a small screen.

There is a chance we'll release it later this year, but I'll probably push to release it next year with extra bells and whistles. There is a playable engine at this point - my son loves playing it on my iPad - but there is still a long way to go if we want to compete with the big boys. A lot of public companies compete in this space which means we'll have to go above and beyond to get noticed.

Extra bells and whistles on the list:
- An interactive tutorial
- Tournament quality AI
- Several AI personalities
- Sophisticated match making for online play with a ranking system
- An Explore mode with tweaked environments and a compelling story
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Pessano
United States
Tampa
Florida
flag msg tools
Microbadge: Civilization Computer Game fanMicrobadge: Pearl Jam fanMicrobadge: Tampa Bay Lightning fanMicrobadge: Ultimate Frisbee fanMicrobadge: Gulf Games Convention
domcrap wrote:
Nothing is set in stone yet. So take this with a grain of salt:

Our end goal is Steam / iOS / Android for both tablet and phone, but our path to get there hasn't been mapped out or even finalized. Phone might not even be possible depending upon how it looks on a small screen.

There is a chance we'll release it later this year, but I'll probably push to release it next year with extra bells and whistles. There is a playable engine at this point - my son loves playing it on my iPad - but there is still a long way to go if we want to compete with the big boys. A lot of public companies compete in this space which means we'll have to go above and beyond to get noticed.

Extra bells and whistles on the list:
- An interactive tutorial
- Tournament quality AI
- Several AI personalities
- Sophisticated match making for online play with a ranking system
- An Explore mode with tweaked environments and a compelling story
Instant buy!!!!!!!!!

Thx
jonpfl
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jepmn wrote:
According to another thread, it's confirmed that in the 2nd ed cooperation activates foraging. But my question is more involved than that. Let's say I had these three species:

Species 1: Cooperation, Foraging
Species 2: Cooperation, Foraging
Species 3: Cooperation, Foraging, Fat Tissue

Assume max population for this question.

Which of these are correct?

Option 1:
Species 1 takes 1 food and forages for 1 food.
Species 2 cooperates for 2 food and forages for 2 food.
Species 3 cooperates for 4 food and forages for 4 food (2 goes on Fat Tissue).
Total food taken: 14

Option 2:
Species 1 takes 1 food and forages for 1 food.
Species 2 cooperates for 1 food and forages for 1 food.
Species 3 cooperates for 1 food and forages for 1 food.
Total food taken: 6

I THINK the first one is correct, but people were really looking at me strange when I took so much food just on ONE food action (okay, it wasn't exactly this much because I didn't have fat tissue and the middle guy didn't actually have foraging). But I did have over 93 points at the end of the game compared the the next highest having about half that.
I'd just like to say I found this thread and this post VERY USEFUL, as I made the same mistake as the OP (did option 1).
So I can't agree with the person who said the OP was THE ONLY ONE who interpreted it that way.
Now IMHO the cards (ed. 2.) are worded clearly enough that when you READ THEM REALLY CAREFULLY and THINK ABOUT it thoroughly, you will understand the intended meaning (which is option 2). But if you're a beginner and read the powers once and remember them in a simplified way you can easily make a mistake. For example I simply remembered Foraging as "take 2 plant food instead of 1" and Cooperation as "copy each 1 food eaten to the right", which is wrong, and leads to situations like option 1. But when I do read cards carefully I arrive to the same conclusion most other people did. Still, these cards could have been a bit more precise in that regard.

As for the excessive scavenging, well if you haven't noticed there's a number of thematic breakdowns in Evolution (like the impossible long neck burrowers, or hard shell avians). It's simply a fact that the natural world, the evolutionary process, ecosystems, and animal species are all very complex, and completely simulating them in every way would create an extremely complex game, which Evolution was never meant to be. So be happy the theme really works in most ways, and is not just tacked on like in many games...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Prev «  1 , 2  |