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Vietnam 1965-1975» Forums » Rules

Subject: Ineffective Arvn strategic movement rss

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Patrick
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Hello.

I have a question about the strategic movement .
ineffective units could them use naval movement if they are moved in a harbor or cultivated beach in the same corps

Example
Da Nang to Chu Lai
Da Nang to hex 5423 ?

Thanks for your return

Happy sunday.


 
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Randy Knight
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Re: Innefective Arvn strategic movement
I'm going to have to check the rule book on that one when I get home from vacation. I don't know the answer offhand.
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Curt Chambers

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Re: Innefective Arvn strategic movement
I'm not sure of the right answer either.

I've always played that sea movement is a form of strategic movement and thus ineffective ARVN would be eligible if they otherwise met the conditions.
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Mitchell Land
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Re: Innefective Arvn strategic movement
I believe Naval Movement is just a form of movement. If otherwise eligible, I think a unit would be able to do so.
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Mark McG
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Re: Innefective Arvn strategic movement
generally I would say yes, but I feel there is some argument going to be made here about Naval movement not crossing Corps or National boundaries. So I think if the landing point is in a different Corps area, then this would be against the spirit if not the letter of the rules.
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Patrick
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Re: Innefective Arvn strategic movement


I just read again the rule.
You can make naval transport at the strategic movement phase
But because they write. Page 5 2-1-3

"The Us player may conduct security operation and employ strategic and naval movement"

I suppose the naval transport , it s not a strategic movement ?

Page 8
you have
3-3 strategic movement
- Us strategic movement
- NlF strategic movement

3-4 Naval transport


 
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Curt Chambers

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Re: Innefective Arvn strategic movement
I guess it can be interpreted either way. But I agree with Mark McG that if you do allow it the embarkation and debarkation hexes must be in the same zone.
 
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Bob A

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Re: Innefective Arvn strategic movement
I think ineffective units can only end strat movement in a town though, so landing them on a beach would be out, but taking them from a beach to a port would be ok. (edit: in the same zone)
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Curt Chambers

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Re: Innefective Arvn strategic movement
Ineffective units can end movement in a cultivated hex, which includes some beaches. But I don't think sea movement works in reverse. You can't embark from a beach. Only from a port.
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craig grinnell
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Re: Innefective Arvn strategic movement
Well, if ya wanna split hairs...

An ineffective ARVN unit could naval move to another corps since said unit would never actually "enter a hex containing a corps boundary."

I think that would be REALLY pushing the "spirit of the law" but strictly speaking, would work.
 
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Randy Knight
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Re: Innefective Arvn strategic movement
I definitely like how you think...
 
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Patrick
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Re: Innefective Arvn strategic movement

I was always talk about naval movement in the same corps.
But i think the real question finally is .

Is the Naval Transport a strategic movement or just a movement allowed during the strategic movement phase?

I will say, just a allowed movement because the page 8

Strategic movement chapter 3.3
Naval transport chapter 3.4

But , its just my feeling and maybe a wrong interpretation

Thanks anyway for your help.
 
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Mitchell Land
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Although it's a separate rules section, it appears that Naval Transport is only undertaken during Strategic Movement (as that's when it's mentioned in the Sequence of Play).
 
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craig grinnell
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I don't know 'bout that.

Strategic movement can't use airmobile or riverine.
But air/river movement can be used to get to a port for naval transport.

I think naval trans is an extension of any type of movement.

As such, you could walk to a port in IV Corps area and move to I Corps and continue moving toward a target as part of an operation.

I probably wouldn't do it because I would forget some crucial detail and mess it up, but it may be a legal possibility....? (i'll leave that open for debate, maybe in another thread)

Although I do see your point. It is only mentioned in the sequence of play at one spot. And yet the rule itself doesn't mention this.

As for the original question, I see no reason why an ineffective ARVN unit can't naval move within a corps zone.
 
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Mitchell Land
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That's the part I'm struggling with. The only place it's clearly stated is in the SOP.

AHA - going by the adage "it's a VG game, it's in the rulebook" - check out 2.2 Operations. It lists Strategic Movement and Naval Transport as operations (also, you can't attack, except for incidental in the case of naval transport, using either).

It then goes on to say that "each of these operations may take place during the Operations Phase. In addition, US strategic movement, naval transport, and security operations may occur during the Strategic Movement Phase"

I'd say that clears it up. You can conduct Strategic Movement and/or Naval Transport in either the Strategic Movement Phase or Operations Phase.
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Patrick
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grinnell1969 wrote:


As such, you could walk to a port in IV Corps area and move to I Corps and continue moving toward a target as part of an operation.


You can walk to a port , but the movement stop when you disembark
(they say until you reach the port)



grinnell1969 wrote:


As for the original question, I see no reason why an ineffective ARVN unit can't naval move within a corps zone.

Ineffective units only available to strategic movement.
If naval transport is not a strategic movement . They just can't.
 
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craig grinnell
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So, based on that, I would conclude that Naval Movement CAN be used as an appendage to strategic movement, but isn't itself PART of strategic movement.

Sound fair?

(killed my idea of an end runsoblue)
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Mitchell Land
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grinnell1969 wrote:
So, based on that, I would conclude that Naval Movement CAN be used as an appendage to strategic movement, but isn't itself PART of strategic movement.

Sound fair?

(killed my idea of an end runsoblue)


Reads to me like Naval Transport is just an operation, like any other, only it can be conducted in both the Strategic Movement and Operations Phases (just like Strategic Movement can). Unfortunately, you can't attack (at all as part of Strategic Movement and only as part of an Incidental Attack in Naval Transport).

It's all good, though, as I learned something new. I'd never realized that the US could also use Strategic Movement as an operation during the Operations Phase. That's something good to know in case you want to rapidly reposition a division to respond to a NLF movement in the previous turn, i.e., you don't have to wait until the next season's Strategic Movement Phase.
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Petri P
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Toadkillerdog wrote:
grinnell1969 wrote:
So, based on that, I would conclude that Naval Movement CAN be used as an appendage to strategic movement, but isn't itself PART of strategic movement.

Sound fair?

(killed my idea of an end run:soblue:)


Reads to me like Naval Transport is just an operation, like any other, only it can be conducted in both the Strategic Movement and Operations Phases (just like Strategic Movement can). Unfortunately, you can't attack (at all as part of Strategic Movement and only as part of an Incidental Attack in Naval Transport).

It's all good, though, as I learned something new. I'd never realized that the US could also use Strategic Movement as an operation during the Operations Phase. That's something good to know in case you want to rapidly reposition a division to respond to a NLF movement in the previous turn, i.e., you don't have to wait until the next season's Strategic Movement Phase.


Strategic movement is not that common for US/NVA during the normal operation phase, but it is *very common* for VC/NVA during the normal operation phase. It triples the movement - allowing VC to move 18 to 21 MP, allowing NVA mechanized, paying 1/2 point per road hex, to move 72 hexes worth. That is the reason for ARVN to garrison capitols on the road network for years after US has gone. Enough of a stack with an effective unit to trigger incidental attack with air support, to destroy the NVA regiment trying to drive through. Otherwise NVA could just drive to Saigon in one turn.
 
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Mark Evans
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I see quite a bit of discussion on this. The rules seem clear to me on this issue. Let me explain why I think that.

An ifern wrote:
...I have a question about the strategic movement.
Ineffective units, could they use naval movement if they are moved in a harbor or cultivated beach in the same corps?


NO. Naval Movement and Strategic Movement are two different and distinct types of movement. Strategic movement during the strategic movement phase is a requirement for moving ineffective ARVN per 11.1, thus Naval Movement may not be used.

Quote:
Da Nang to Chu Lai?

NO

Quote:
Da Nang to hex 5423?

NO, though this meets the requirement of being a beach with cultivated terrain within I Corp.
 
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Curt Chambers

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Hmmm. I'm starting to change my mind on this. I used to think it was allowed on the basis of Naval Movement being allowed during the Strategic Movement phase. But they have different sections in the rules and use totally different mechanics. Naval Moveent now appears as just another form of regular movement, unlrelated to Strategic Movementd except for being allowed in the strat movement phase.
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Curt Chambers

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petrip wrote:
...Strategic movement is not that common for US/NVA during the normal operation phase..


You may change your opinion if you ever play a game with Erik
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Mitchell Land
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Raindem wrote:
Hmmm. I'm starting to change my mind on this. I used to think it was allowed on the basis of Naval Movement being allowed during the Strategic Movement phase. But they have different sections in the rules and use totally different mechanics. Naval Moveent now appears as just another form of regular movement, unlrelated to Strategic Movementd except for being allowed in the strat movement phase.


I agree. Strategic Movement is a type of Operation. As is Naval Transport. Ineffective ARVN may only conduct the former.
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Bob A

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Interesting thread!

If the rules (not in front of me right now) states that Naval Movement is a particular operation that is to be declared as an operation, then I would say NO to its availability.

If it does not specifically state that it is an operation, but merely a type of movement, then I say YES, it can be incorporated into a Strategic Movement operation.
 
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craig grinnell
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I feel like we are going in circles, but I think we are reaching a consensus.

The "Operation Summary" has a line that says, "Strategic or Naval Movement during the strategic movement phase."

That to me is definitive. It clearly separates them AND labels Naval Movement as an OP and not simply movement.
So I was wrong gulp in that naval movement is just an extension of other types of movement.

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