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Subject: Surprise, Fall of France, Snorkels and USA units rss

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Edward Kendrick
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A few rules questions:

1) Does Surprise trump First to Fire technology? Let’s say the Axis DoW and attack Russia. The Russians are defending, so they fire first, except that this is the first turn after a DoW so the Axis have Surprise, so they fire first. But wait, the cunning Soviets have developed Rocket Artillery and declare it – does their infantry get to fire first?

2) In the example of play you have a situation where the Axis have an ongoing battle with a minor (Spain). The next turn they declare war on the West and thus get Surprise in battles with the West. In the ongoing battle with Spanish forces (where the West has not had time to intervene), the example implies that the Axis would have Surprise in this battle too – this seems wrong. If the Axis was already at war with Russia they wouldn’t get Surprise there, surely?

3) Can the British put a British unit in Algiers and/or Syria to keep control of the French colonies after the fall of France? The rules would appear to allow this although it wouldn’t have happened historically (and eg Third Reich specifically disallows this tactic). On the other hand, a German unit (assuming it was supplied) would presumably keep control of Tripoli on the fall of Rome.

4) When Paris is captured, France doesn’t fall until the end of the Combat Phase, so any other battles involving French units that phase are fought out before removing them – correct?

5) On the fall of France there is no possibility of any French forces (particularly fleets) remaining under Allied control – I assume this was left out for simplicity?

6) There was a reference in another thread to Snorkel technology giving subs M3 – I take it this was dropped from the final version of the game?

7) The USA units arrive if the USA is a West Satellite in 1942. For this to happen, since Production occurs before Diplomacy, I take it the USA must have become a satellite in 1941 or earlier?
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Craig Besinque
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1. Both sides have FirstFire so they cancel (15.22), leaving the Russians to fire first as Defenders.

2. Correct, no Surprise vs Armed Neutrals. Summer 1939 Axis Combat #2 (Barcelona) in the Playbook does discuss Surprise, implying it applies vs Armed Neutral Spain, which it does not. This discussion should have been placed elsewhere in the Example of Play. Good catch.

3. Yes, this is allowed.

4. Yes.

5. Yes.

6. Yes.

7. West gets an automatic Influence bump at 1942 Year Start, which can instantaneously make USA a Satellite (8.44). If so, this will enable USA Forces arrival during 1942 West Production, as the USA is a West Satellite at that point (8.45).

Craig
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Edward Kendrick
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Thanks Craig for your swift response. I played a game of this at WBC and liked it so much I bought it!

I particularly like the freedom from scripting and the realistic feel of the decisions you have to make.

As a matter of interest, were the snorkels dropped because they were too powerful or because they didn't make much difference?
 
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Craig Besinque
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Re: Snorkels
We decided to eliminate one Tech in order to make the others "denser" in the deck and therefore a little easier to achieve.

Snorkel was the loser.

Purchase: cool, glad it grabbed you that much.

Craig
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les kramer
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Further to Q 1, if the Axis also have Rocket Artillery, do their multiple FirstFire bonus combine to fire before the Defenders?
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Craig Besinque
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No.

Craig
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les kramer
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Thanks for the quick response. Had a good day playing this. Axis player was too unsure of his position and didn't initiate DOW until 1943. Mainly due to the egging on of the peanut gallery walking by. Very tense game with the feeling that your defences would crumble. In hindsight, the border crossing limits hinder the attacker significantly if the unit count is allowed to grow, so need to attack before reaching this point.
 
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Edward Kendrick
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lesk wrote:
Further to Q 1, if the Axis also have Rocket Artillery, do their multiple FirstFire bonus combine to fire before the Defenders?

cbesinque wrote:
No.

Craig

H'm, that's the first response that has struck me as illogical. With no technology, that is equal technology on both sides, Surprise gives the attacker an advantage. But when each side has the same technology advance, Surprise doesn't give the advantage?
 
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Mark Buetow
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Barbarossa wrote:
lesk wrote:
Further to Q 1, if the Axis also have Rocket Artillery, do their multiple FirstFire bonus combine to fire before the Defenders?

cbesinque wrote:
No.

Craig

H'm, that's the first response that has struck me as illogical. With no technology, that is equal technology on both sides, Surprise gives the attacker an advantage. But when each side has the same technology advance, Surprise doesn't give the advantage?

You gotta figure, if the French (West) have Rocket Artillery, they know something's up...
 
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Craig Besinque
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Re: Surprise / Rocket Artillery Correction
Sorry, misread the original question. My bad.

Soviets have Rocket Artillery.
Axis DoWs USSR, has Surprise.
The 2 effects cancel during the Surprise Turn.
Soviet Infantry fires first as Defender.

Agree, anything else would not be logical.

Craig
 
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Mark Buetow
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cbesinque wrote:
Sorry, misread the original question. My bad.

Soviets have Rocket Artillery.
Axis DoWs USSR, has Surprise.
The 2 effects cancel during the Surprise Turn.
Soviet Infantry fires first as Defender.

Agree, anything else would not be logical.

Craig

I think the answer he was after was something like this:
Soviets have Rocket Artillery.
Axis have Rocket Artillery.
Axis DoW, has Surprise.
Axis fires first because Surprise boosts thems beyond the parity of Rocket Artillery.

That is NOT correct. If the Defender has Rocket Artillery, they will always fire first, even if the Attacker has surprise.

 
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Craig Besinque
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Malacandra wrote:
cbesinque wrote:
Sorry, misread the original question. My bad.

Soviets have Rocket Artillery.
Axis DoWs USSR, has Surprise.
The 2 effects cancel during the Surprise Turn.
Soviet Infantry fires first as Defender.

Agree, anything else would not be logical.

Craig

I think the answer he was after was something like this:
Soviets have Rocket Artillery.
Axis have Rocket Artillery.
Axis DoW, has Surprise.
Axis fires first because Surprise boosts thems beyond the parity of Rocket Artillery.

That is NOT correct. If the Defender has Rocket Artillery, they will always fire first, even if the Attacker has surprise.


Mark,

Thank you for jumping in on many rules questions.

Your are correct: rule 12.3 Combat Actions states that "Within a given unit type, Defenders go before Attackers unless the Attackers have FirstFire (9.0) capability and the Defenders do not (see sidebar)."

In this "fine point" case, however, IMO it is more logical to allow Surprise to overrule a "tie" on Tech-FirstFire even though that does not follow the language we used in 12.3. In playtesting we did in fact play it that way -- I just failed to account for the case (RktArty /RktArty / Surprise) in writing rule 12.3.

So I would recommend that players adopt the above ruling as being in the "spirit" of the FirstFire mechanism until an updated Living Rules file is published.

Anybody see a problem with this interpretation?

Craig



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Brian Evans
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Quote:
Soviets have Rocket Artillery.
Axis have Rocket Artillery.
Axis DoW, has Surprise.
Axis fires first because Surprise boosts thems beyond the parity of Rocket Artillery.


This is certainly how I playtested it. Surprise + FirstFire is like having 2 FirstFire. If one is canceled (because the other guy has the same tech) then you still have 1 FirstFire and shoot first.


I can see we could of worded that a little better.
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Mark Buetow
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Furyn wrote:
Quote:
Soviets have Rocket Artillery.
Axis have Rocket Artillery.
Axis DoW, has Surprise.
Axis fires first because Surprise boosts thems beyond the parity of Rocket Artillery.


This is certainly how I playtested it. Surprise + FirstFire is like having 2 FirstFire. If one is canceled (because the other guy has the same tech) then you still have 1 FirstFire and shoot first.


I can see we could of worded that a little better.

I stand corrected.

So, to be crystal clear:
Surprise vs. Defender's First Fire Tech cancels, and Defender fires first as normal.
Surpise PLUS First Fire Tech vs. Defender's First Fire tech, and Attacker will fire first.

Right?
 
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Craig Besinque
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Malacandra wrote:
Furyn wrote:
Quote:
Soviets have Rocket Artillery.
Axis have Rocket Artillery.
Axis DoW, has Surprise.
Axis fires first because Surprise boosts thems beyond the parity of Rocket Artillery.


This is certainly how I playtested it. Surprise + FirstFire is like having 2 FirstFire. If one is canceled (because the other guy has the same tech) then you still have 1 FirstFire and shoot first.


I can see we could of worded that a little better.

I stand corrected.

So, to be crystal clear:
Surprise vs. Defender's First Fire Tech cancels, and Defender fires first as normal.
Surpise PLUS First Fire Tech vs. Defender's First Fire tech, and Attacker will fire first.

Right?


Mark,

Yes, correct.

(And you do not stand corrected, I do. You interpreted what the rule (12.3) said correctly, I had just not taken that situation into account with my wording.)

We all on the same page now?

Craig
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Brian Evans
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Yup I agree, it's all Craig's fault!
 
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