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Subject: And/or actions timming rss

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Madog Williams
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What is the timming for "And/or" actions in Agricola?
In Caverna they can be done in any order is the same applicable in Agricola?
Example the Sow And/or Bake bread action. Can you bake bread then optionaly sow or must you sow first before the option to bake.
So are the options:
1 Sow only
2 Bake only
3 Sow then bake
4 Bake and then sow
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Ben Bateson
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Any order is OK.

Note that the Renovate THEN Improvement space is different - this is the only one that is timing-restrictive.
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Per Kristian Thorsen
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In my playgroup we have been playing with the first 3 options but im not sure if that is the official ruling on it?

Edit: seems like soneone have red up on it ^^ cool to know ^^
 
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Geoff Burkman
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In Agricola "And/or" is essentially a commutative descriptor; thus one can perform the specified actions in any order. This applies to "Sow &/or Bake," "Plow &/or Sow," and "Starting Player &/or Minor Improvement." As Ben notes above, both Renovation actions are mandatory before their secondary action becomes available.

Now, my question is: with rare exception due to some card effect in play, why would anyone ever want to perform the secondary action of an "And/or" space first?

I suspect the design and development team that put the game together were able to figure this out fairly early in the process.
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Geoff Burkman
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ousgg wrote:
Any order is OK.

Note that the Renovate THEN Improvement space is different - this is the only one that is timing-restrictive.


Both Renovation spaces function this way.

/nitpicking
 
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Gareth Reynolds
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MisterG wrote:
ousgg wrote:
Any order is OK.

Note that the Renovate THEN Improvement space is different - this is the only one that is timing-restrictive.

Both Renovation spaces function this way.

/nitpicking
So does the Family Growth then Minor Improvement.
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Madog Williams
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Thank for the quick responses.
Our group was only using options 1-3 which I questioned.
Just wanted to clarify.
Now there is the option to bake , pay food from the bake for a grain etc and then sow it as part of the "And/or" and perform the secondary action of an "And/or" space first.

Vineyard is a good example
http://play-agricola.com/Agricola/Images/ominorvineyard.jpg
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Todd Parker
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Most of the and-or spots will rarely matter, so either order is fine.
The after-then spaces matter alot.
You cant have 2 rooms in your house, take the family growth space and use the wooden hut extension card then make a baby. You have to have the 3rd room before you take that action.

Grocer is a good example. You have one grain. You take sow-bake and bake the grain for food. You can use the food to buy grain or veges from the grocer card and sow those. This is legal.

But can you bake a grain for 3 food in your cooking hearth, use the food to buy the grain from the grocer, and bake that grain as well? I would think you can. You can buy from the grocer at anytime, so even in the middle of your bake bread action. Or maybe once you are out of grain, your bake bread action comes to an end, and you cant do another bake bread action with that person??
 
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Geoff Burkman
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toddpark75 wrote:
...But can you bake a grain for 3 food in your cooking hearth, use the food to buy the grain from the grocer, and bake that grain as well? I would think you can. You can buy from the grocer at anytime, so even in the middle of your bake bread action. Or maybe once you are out of grain, your bake bread action comes to an end, and you cant do another bake bread action with that person??


I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure this is a legitimate procedure. There's a thread on it around here somewhere...
 
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Madog Williams
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Also found confirmation on play agricola.com
http://play-agricola.com/forums/index.php?topic=2561.0
 
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Matt Shields
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MisterG wrote:
toddpark75 wrote:
...But can you bake a grain for 3 food in your cooking hearth, use the food to buy the grain from the grocer, and bake that grain as well? I would think you can. You can buy from the grocer at anytime, so even in the middle of your bake bread action. Or maybe once you are out of grain, your bake bread action comes to an end, and you cant do another bake bread action with that person??


I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure this is a legitimate procedure. There's a thread on it around here somewhere...


I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think this works because it basically turns it into two separate "bake bread" actions. You can definitely bake then buy then sow. But if you bake then buy then bake more, that sounds like two different bakes.

Likewise, suppose you have Architect (receive 2 food for each room you build) as well as the Grocer. Can I go: Build 1 Room, Receive 2 food, Buy a reed from the Grocer, then Build another room?

I kinda don't think you can do that, because I'm breaking my action into two different actions. That seems like two separate "build room" actions. I could be totally wrong about that though.
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Geoff Burkman
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I can't remember the last time I ever had the opportunity to do that, Matt, but I believe the scenario you present is perfectly legal as well. Hmm, we need someone like Hanno or Eugene to weigh in on this...
 
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Joshua Hamer
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will583 wrote:
What is the timming for "And/or" actions in Agricola?


I can't be the only one who was wondering how tapping for one point of damage would be applicable in a game of Agricola.
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Matt Shields
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MisterG wrote:
I can't remember the last time I ever had the opportunity to do that, Matt, but I believe the scenario you present is perfectly legal as well. Hmm, we need someone like Hanno or Eugene to weigh in on this...


There's a couple threads in the playagricola.com forums about this, but no clear consensus:

http://play-agricola.com/forums/index.php?topic=3861.0
http://play-agricola.com/forums/index.php?topic=3808.0

The first one references a case where someone had builder's trowel and wanted to build a wood room, then renovate, then build a clay room as one action. It's basically the same issue as with the Grocer.

I think I may have been arguing the other side in one of those. whistle
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Madog Williams
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Looks like I opened a can of worms here.
I do like the remodeler+ trowel on the "build and /or stables" linked above.

Guess we can do without LIFO and stacked effects in Agricola; so a bake via a cooking hearth which allows multiple bakes could end up being quite a big combo before the sow bit. Wonder if there is an infinite combo out there?
 
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Matt Shields
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will583 wrote:
Wonder if there is an infinite combo out there?


Market Woman + Office appears to be one, unless there is some official nerf to it that I'm unaware of.

Came up in this thread the other day: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1417735/2-card-combo . There's a longer thread talking about it around here somewhere.

It doesn't result in infinite points, so it's not an automatic win, but it's infinite food. Throw in Carrot Cake Baker and Pumpkin Pie and then it's infinite points though.
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Benjamin Kerenza
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TwitchBot wrote:
will583 wrote:
Wonder if there is an infinite combo out there?


Market Woman + Office appears to be one, unless there is some official nerf to it that I'm unaware of.

Came up in this thread the other day: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1417735/2-card-combo . There's a longer thread talking about it around here somewhere.

It doesn't result in infinite points, so it's not an automatic win, but it's infinite food. Throw in Carrot Cake Baker and Pumpkin Pie and then it's infinite points though.


Disproved http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/20115335#20115335

I know there is a ridiculous pie combination out there somewhere however but I don't think t's infinite or relates to the OP issue, it just generates a massive amount of points.
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Eugene van der Pijll
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bjwells wrote:
TwitchBot wrote:
will583 wrote:
Wonder if there is an infinite combo out there?


Market Woman + Office appears to be one, unless there is some official nerf to it that I'm unaware of.

Came up in this thread the other day: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1417735/2-card-combo . There's a longer thread talking about it around here somewhere.

It doesn't result in infinite points, so it's not an automatic win, but it's infinite food. Throw in Carrot Cake Baker and Pumpkin Pie and then it's infinite points though.


Disproved http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/20115335#20115335

It's not disproved, it's contradicted without a (valid) argument. (Although I could be wrong, it's been a while since I looked at this.)

AFAIK, the discussion hasn't progressed beyond this thread, which has an official (and, IMHO, unsatisfactory) ruling by Hanno.
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Matt Shields
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bjwells wrote:


Disproved http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/20115335#20115335

I know there is a ridiculous pie combination out there somewhere however but I don't think t's infinite or relates to the OP issue, it just generates a massive amount of points.


Hanno made an ad hoc "preliminary" ruling that exchanging/converting doesn't count as "receiving". And then never followed up on it. That was in 2013.

By that rule it wouldn't work, but it was never clear to me that it was official. And that would definitely constitute a rules change because we've always said that everything you get into your supply is "receiving". I'm pretty sure this would be the first example of something you get not triggering "receive" effects.

Edit: And yes, the Pumpkin Pie thing is an add on to this same combo. You would use Carrot Care Baker to give you a bake action by converting a vegi to food, and then make pie every time you bake. So because you have infinite vegis, you can get as many bake actions as you want, and because you have infinate grain and vegis you can get 3 bonus points every time you do so. But if Market Woman doesn't trigger off Office, then the whole thing is moot.
 
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Johan Sporre
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Would be prudent to have Market Woman limited to once per turn instead of changing when she is activated I think.
 
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Madog Williams
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With reference to the Market Woman. rather than one per turn could it be once per action and begining of turn ? This would allow for a begining of turn receive veg and use the "take one veg " action other actions where veg is recived to allow for another trigger. If there are cards that allow purchase/exchange of a veg then this should also allow a trigger once?
 
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