Nicholas Korpelainen
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Next question: Does an enemy with defend-ability increase the faction leader's armour value, and if so, does this increase apply to every level that you're trying to reduce or merely to the highest level?

So if I want to reduce all six levels of a faction leader in one go, I would need six extra attack due to a single other unit with defend-1?

In this case (and/or other cases), am I allowed to make a failed attack targeted at another piece first, so that the defend-ability gets wasted on the 'first unit that got attacked', even though the attack was not successful (a kind of distraction).

Then I can defeat the faction leader (or other enemy unit) as if it was undefended? Or does the original rulebook's recommendation to cancel unsuccessful attacks force you to cancel them?

EDIT: In the end, I managed to kill off the defend-1-enemy to avoid ambiguity. But it would be nice to know the general ruling.
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nkorppi wrote:
Next question: Does an enemy with defend-ability increase the faction leader's armour value, and if so, does this increase apply to every level that you're trying to reduce or merely to the highest level?
The rulebook says several times that faction leaders work as other enemies; so I would say yes.

Quote:
So if I want to reduce all six levels of a faction leader in one go, I would need six extra attack due to a single other unit with defend-1?
I'm pretty sure that if the armor is increased, you'd use the modified armor value for every level.

Quote:
In this case (and/or other cases), am I allowed to make a failed attack targeted at another piece first, so that the defend-ability gets wasted on the 'first unit that got attacked', even though the attack was not successful (a kind of distraction).
Yes, why not? No rule prevents to play less attack than the required one. It's similar to ice shield: you can play it (against non-arcane-immune enemies) just to lower their armor, even if you can't successfully block the attack.

Edit: Regarding the first question, however, it isn't clear if "Defend" affects enemies with arcane immunity. See this thread.
 
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Ben Kyo
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syzygia wrote:
nkorppi wrote:
In this case (and/or other cases), am I allowed to make a failed attack targeted at another piece first, so that the defend-ability gets wasted on the 'first unit that got attacked', even though the attack was not successful (a kind of distraction).
Yes, why not? No rule prevents to play less attack than the required one. It's similar to ice shield: you can play it (against non-arcane-immune enemies) just to lower their armor, even if you can't successfully block the attack.

Edit: Regarding the first question, however, it isn't clear if "Defend" affects enemies with arcane immunity. See this thread.
I'm pretty sure you can't. No specific rule quotes to back me up on this, but if it were possible I think that would be specifically pointed out in the rules, whereas the examples talk about "need Ranged Attack 7" and all involve attack sufficient to defeat the protected enemies.

Re: Arcane immunity, the rulebook specifically says "Defend can increase the armour of an enemy with Arcane immunity" (see FAQ, page 15).

 
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Benkyo wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can't. No specific rule quotes to back me up on this, but if it were possible I think that would be specifically pointed out in the rules, whereas the examples talk about "need Ranged Attack 7" and all involve attack sufficient to defeat the protected enemies.
I don't understand your point. "Defend" targets the first enemy you attack. This enemy has its armor increased. You have to attack that enemy, but I can play "range attack X" against an enemy with an armor greater than X. I have done that just to reroll a die. Are you suggesting that you can't do that?

Quote:
Re: Arcane immunity, the rulebook specifically says "Defend can increase the armour of an enemy with Arcane immunity" (see FAQ, page 15).
Thanks, I missed that. I assume that this also answers the question on the white city, then.
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Ben Kyo
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syzygia wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can't. No specific rule quotes to back me up on this, but if it were possible I think that would be specifically pointed out in the rules, whereas the examples talk about "need Ranged Attack 7" and all involve attack sufficient to defeat the protected enemies.
I don't understand your point. "Defend" targets the first enemy you attack. This enemy has its armor increased. You have to attack that enemy, but I can play "range attack X" against an enemy with an armor greater than X. I have done that just to reroll a die. Are you suggesting that you can't do that?
I'm suggesting that Defend makes more sense to me if it is applied to the first enemy you defeat, which is what I suspect the designers intended. I'm inserting a "successfully" to the rules which isn't there, based on nothing more than how the examples are written.
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Benkyo wrote:
I'm suggesting that Defend makes more sense to me if it is applied to the first enemy you defeat, which is what I suspect the designers intended. I'm inserting a "successfully" to the rules which isn't there, based on nothing more than how the examples are written.
Fair enough, it would't be the first mistake in the rulebook. For me, the written rule makes sense, either from a gameplay point of view, or thematically.

From a gameplay, you could "avoid" Defend by making an unsuccessful attack to another token, which, moreover, gets its armor increased in the melee phase. So, you have to spend extra resources if you want to swap the defended target. I mean, I don't think that the rules as written provide a shortcut or makes the ability useless.

From a thematic point of view, you may feint an attack against A, and when the defender enemy protects it, then you attack B. It makes sense to me.
 
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My thinking is that there has never previously been any use for move/attack/block/influence that doesn't equal or exceed "X", and it seems incongruous that Defend might add one. I mean, it may well be that you are right, but until we get a clarification (hopefully Paul will step in soon - I've geekmailed him) I prefer to play with Defend as an another addition to the all-or-nothing system than something that creates an entirely new use for failed attacks and a need to track them.
As an aside, Forked Lightning becomes way more useful your way, and all of the +1 attack skills become more versatile.
 
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Benkyo wrote:
My thinking is that there has never previously been any use for move/attack/block/influence that doesn't equal or exceed "X"
It has been: reroll a die.
 
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syzygia wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
My thinking is that there has never previously been any use for move/attack/block/influence that doesn't equal or exceed "X"
It has been: reroll a die.
To my thinking that's using mana, not actually making use of any move/attack/block/influence that might result. I'm not arguing your point - just clarifying that your reply misses mine. The game seems built around an all-or-nothing economy and that influenced my interpretation of the rules, that's all I was trying to explain.
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I'm checking with Phil, but I think the defend bonus is applied to the first thing you attack. You don't have to defeat it.

Thematically, you attack it, the defenders rush in to protect it, boosting it's armour.
 
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That's correct, although it's rarely worth it (when fighting faction leaders being the main time it's useful).
 
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Yeah, it ends up being "are you willing to not completely defeat all enemies at this site in order to push defend onto someone else?" That doesn't seem like an invalid tradeoff to me.
 
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Good to know. Certainly makes Forked Lightning better, and Life and Death a little easier.
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PhilP wrote:
... it's rarely worth it (when fighting faction leaders being the main time it's useful).
I found it would have been useful several times in any game in which Forked Lightning comes into play (had I been playing correctly, that is).
 
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It also seems quite useful in competitive games, where you don't want that the next player can easily remove several levels of the leader. This is, you don't want to kill the followers.
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PaulGrogan wrote:
I'm checking with Phil, but I think the defend bonus is applied to the first thing you attack. You don't have to defeat it.

Thematically, you attack it, the defenders rush in to protect it, boosting it's armour.

But I'm guessing that you have to at least deal some damage? As in: You can't just declare an attack, play nothing and count it as the "defender-trigger"?
 
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Dulkal wrote:
PaulGrogan wrote:
I'm checking with Phil, but I think the defend bonus is applied to the first thing you attack. You don't have to defeat it.

Thematically, you attack it, the defenders rush in to protect it, boosting it's armour.

But I'm guessing that you have to at least deal some damage? As in: You can't just declare an attack, play nothing and count it as the "defender-trigger"?

Correct. You must generate at least one point of attack on the enemy.
 
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nkorppi wrote:
does this increase apply to every level that you're trying to reduce or merely to the highest level?

So if I want to reduce all six levels of a faction leader in one go, I would need six extra attack due to a single other unit with defend-1?

The rulebook says:

Quote:
You may reduce a faction leader by more than one level at a time by
playing an Attack value equal to or greater than a multiple of their Armor
value.

The faction leader's level doesn't change in combat. You're using the armor value that is given for that specific level which is active right now. And if you overkill it, then as a reward you hurt them more. So, yeah, if you want to beat off 6 levels, then defend +1 turns into defend +6, because you have to beat 6 times the current armor.
 
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Dulkal wrote:
PaulGrogan wrote:
I'm checking with Phil, but I think the defend bonus is applied to the first thing you attack. You don't have to defeat it.

Thematically, you attack it, the defenders rush in to protect it, boosting it's armour.

But I'm guessing that you have to at least deal some damage? As in: You can't just declare an attack, play nothing and count it as the "defender-trigger"?
Benkyo wrote:
Good to know. Certainly makes Forked Lightning better, and Life and Death a little easier.

That makes burning & freezing power even better.
So even when assaulting, I may chose a convenient amount of enemy to trigger all the defend ability, wasting no card nor mana.
It might seem overpowered sometimes.
 
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nomrefuse wrote:
Dulkal wrote:
PaulGrogan wrote:
I'm checking with Phil, but I think the defend bonus is applied to the first thing you attack. You don't have to defeat it.

Thematically, you attack it, the defenders rush in to protect it, boosting it's armour.

But I'm guessing that you have to at least deal some damage? As in: You can't just declare an attack, play nothing and count it as the "defender-trigger"?
Benkyo wrote:
Good to know. Certainly makes Forked Lightning better, and Life and Death a little easier.

That makes burning & freezing power even better.
So even when assaulting, I may chose a convenient amount of enemy to trigger all the defend ability, wasting no card nor mana.
It might seem overpowered sometimes.
You can only assign Defend to a given enemy once. So burning or freezing power can only misdirect one Defend, not all of them, unlike Forked lightning, which is sufficient for up to three Defend abilities.
 
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Are you sure?

Imagine that you're fighting against token A, B and C; A and B have defend. Can't you group B and C, attack them with burning power? Wouldn't that trigger both "defend"?
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syzygia wrote:
Are you sure?

Imagine that you're fighting against token A, B and C; A and B have defend. Can't you group B and C, attack them with burning power? Wouldn't that trigger both "defend"?
Good point. I suppose I hadn't thought it through because it seems like exploiting a loophole, but it works according to the rules. I might just house-rule to make it not work... need to think it over.
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Yeah, I agree, it seems too good to be legal. That's why I asked.
 
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syzygia wrote:
Imagine that you're fighting against token A, B and C; A and B have defend. Can't you group B and C, attack them with burning power? Wouldn't that trigger both "defend"?
Exactly what I had in mind.

Benkyo wrote:
Good point. I suppose I hadn't thought it through because it seems like exploiting a loophole, but it works according to the rules. I might just house-rule to make it not work... need to think it over.
That's why I posted. This ruling can hardly be made more official, but I'll most likely house-rule differently.

I wanted to have other opinions and make sure this was well thought.
 
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I don't see the big imbalance, to be honest.

If you want to kill anything with ranged/siege attack, your "feint" has to be ranged as well, so no hot swordsmanship or the like. If you want to sacrifice sharpshooting for this, go ahead, but it likely equals the amount of the defend ability anyway, especially since you can deal with one defend at a time (by choosing only one target).

So if you wait for the melee attack phase instead, do you intent to leave the two enemies you grouped together be? Take/block their damage and not defeat them? If so, great :-) But if not, you still have to play the additional attack necessary later on.

Not sure if I am missing something. In my games, however, I just had to shuffle things around a bit, or was forced to melee, which I guess was the whole point to begin with. No more simply sniping the hard foe and deal with the little ones later; or play even more ranged/siege to still snipe through defend.

That being said, forked lightning just screws with your enemies :-) I have no problem with that as well then ;-)
 
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