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Subject: DoW, Attacking Protectorate, Removing Influence rss

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Mindy G
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In our third game yesterday (we played from Noon til 3am, with a dinner break, can you tell we were enjoying it? ), I was one Season away from winning my third game, when the Axis moved into my Protectorate The Low Countries, violating neutrality and declaring war on me and dropping my Resources down to 2, because I didn't understand Trade Routes yet. I was wondering if since you can remove influence at any time, could I have chosen to remove one of my two influence, so then it would not be a Protectorate anymore and then wouldn't be an act of war on me, thus saving my resources. We weren't always very good at verbally declaring war before moving troops, can it make a difference? Like if he said I declare war, could I then immediately remove an influence, and then if he moved into The LC, that wouldn't be attacking me, would he have to attack me somewhere else because he declared war or would the war not start, since he didn't end up attacking me? I hope this is making sense, I'm just not sure on the required sequence and timing here.

Also, do the blockades drop resources immediately, or is it only counted later before production, so even though we were at war, could I have still maybe won at the start of year victory check, assuming my lowest production would still be high enough? (I don't remember if it would have been.) Something I read seemed to imply that maybe we did that wrong.
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oriecat wrote:
I was wondering if since you can remove influence at any time, could I have chosen to remove one of my two influence, so then it would not be a Protectorate anymore and then wouldn't be an act of war on me
Yes (the "Repudiation Example" at the bottom of the p. 8 sidebar has an example of that), "but," although there's a bit here which says you can't declare a violation of neutrality without invading the neutral, I don't think there's the same limitation on declaring war. (That is, I think your opponent can declare war without actually attacking you.)

oriecat wrote:
Also, do the blockades drop resources immediately, or is it only counted later before production, so even though we were at war, could I have still maybe won at the start of year victory check
Well... even though the victory check is before production, I think the "including Blockade effects" bit in 16.1 means you do consider new blockades* (and having to include RES in your production because you're now at war) during the victory check.

* that is, Blockades which were marked normally during the previous Summer Supply phase
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Craig Besinque
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Rusty is once again right twice (Rusty, my man, you really "get" my intentions, even when not crystal clear -- I can't recall an instance where I disagreed with your rules interpretations).

Repudiation: this would a perfect example of its use (another would be as part of an inter-player negotiation: "I'll take away 1 Influence in Bulgaria if you move 3 units west this move.").

Example: say Axis VoN's Low, which is a West Protectorate. West could Repudiate one Influence, to avoid this being an automatic DoW on the West.

And yes: victory condition Production counts do require that Blockades be taken into account (Blockades so marked at Summer Supply check and still in effect).

Craig
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Mindy G
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Thank you both, totally missed the Repudiation thing! So let's say that example happened, and the West repudiated, can the Axis then just declare War outright and have to attack another location? Like is it just make declarations, victim reacts, carry on with movement, or can it swing back to the active player to react to the reaction?

And I'm still not following the blockade part, I really need to study that. So if war didn't start until Fall, there would be no blockade markers out and production isn't impacted?
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Mark Buetow
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oriecat wrote:
Thank you both, totally missed the Repudiation thing! So let's say that example happened, and the West repudiated, can the Axis then just declare War outright and have to attack another location? Like is it just make declarations, victim reacts, carry on with movement, or can it swing back to the active player to react to the reaction?

And I'm still not following the blockade part, I really need to study that. So if war didn't start until Fall, there would be no blockade markers out and production isn't impacted?

Blockades are checked in Summer so that you have a chance to remove them in the Fall season if you are able. They are still always checked during Production, though as that's where they actually matter.
 
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Craig Besinque
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oriecat wrote:
Thank you both, totally missed the Repudiation thing! So let's say that example happened, and the West repudiated, can the Axis then just declare War outright and have to attack another location? Like is it just make declarations, victim reacts, carry on with movement, or can it swing back to the active player to react to the reaction?

And I'm still not following the blockade part, I really need to study that. So if war didn't start until Fall, there would be no blockade markers out and production isn't impacted?


DoW: We require a DoW to be declared before any units are moved because the sea movement rules change when you are at War:

A) At Peace, you can move through or co-occupy Rival-occupied sea areas without issue of any kind (a Rival is an opponent you are NOT at war with);

B) At War, if you enter a Sea area occupied by Enemy units, you must stop and fight them. This is to prevent a player from moving through Rival units and then Declaring War (too good). After you Declare War, you must follow "at War" movement rules.

There is no "interruption when a DoW is declared, the Active Player just continues his turn under "at War" conditions.

VoN: No pre-declaration required, but there is an interruption of sorts when they occur - it goes like this:

1) the Active player (let's say the Axis) is moving units during the Movement phase.

2) An Axis unit moves into the territory of an Unaligned Neutral or Associate (for Protectorates, see below).

3) This constitutes a VoN. Both opponents draw World Reaction cards and Neutral Fortresses are set up for that Neutral, now an Armed Neutral.

4) The Active player continues Movement.

5) When Movement is finished, the Axis must fight the Neutral Fortresses it has Engaged (one Round, as for all Land Battles).

VoN of Protectorates

These VoNs follow the above procedure except that they also constitute a DoW on the protecting Faction. Therefore they must be Declared before any units are moved, for the reason given above.

Hope this makes things clearer.

Craig

PS: Blockades are one of the trickier aspects of the game. When you review the Blockade rules, also reference the Playbook Example of Play which illustrates Blockades/Trade Routes, etc.



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Mindy G
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Thanks Craig!
 
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Ananda Gupta
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Craig - so if I as the Axis want to VoN a West Protectorate, I have to DoW the West before I move any units? I assume I also declare my intention to do so via the attack on the protectorate, since the West could repudiate and prevent the DoW from happening. This might matter to me since I might want the protectorate regardless of whether it causes war between me and the West, but I might prefer the West to repudiate.

Edit: Rereading 15.2 I see that the movement into the protectorate requires a previous DoW. So I suppose the time for the repudiation would be before I move, when I tell the West player "I want your protectorate so I'm going to DoW you unless you remove your influence right now." Is that right?
 
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Craig Besinque
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Ananda,

Yes I think that is the best approach.

Give the Protecting Power a warning that a DoW is imminent unless he Reneges an Influence in the Protectorate.

If not, issue the DoW and move into the Protectorate (or back down!).

In playtesting, we were often a little sloppy about such things (take-backs, etc.) but that method cleans up the logic.

Thanks Craig
 
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