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Subject: Plastic! rss

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Nick Dotzenrod
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I dont know much about plastic when it comes to miniatures, but I was wondering, after all the complaints with the plastic used for the minis in the 1st edition of Great War, if there is any talk about changing the plastic type for a future edition? I have memoir 44, and the plastic for those minis seems great! Plus you did not have to cut any pieces out! Why couldnt they just do that for this game?? I purchased a copy of Samurai Battles, another command and colors game, and that game uses hard plastic miniatures that break incredibly easy. It literally ruins the game for me as I feel I dont want to risk playing the game and break anything. Why cant these games have durable components?? I feel like its a game using china dolls as playing pieces. Why would you want to mix the two? Anyway, thoughts? I feel it is complete waste to buy the game, and then print off stickers for blocks. Youre essentially probably wasting 70% of the cost for the game, though I have no idea if thats accurate, but regardless, not using the pieces that come with the game to me defeats the purpose of buying the game all together. You may as well print of the rules, print of a board, make your own block pieces and not buy the game at all!

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Harry Bosch
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Hard plastic is used to get more details on the figures. You also get other benefits like straight gunbarrels and non of the figures have deformed poses (most of my Memoir 44 figures suffer from this).

As PSC is a plastic miniatures company and this is the way they do their miniatures I think there is little chance they will change it.

My personal opinion is that the broken bayonets issue is blown way out of proportion. A few precautions and using the right tools and there is little to no damage (I lost 2 bayonets and they where easy to glue back on and I am in no way a plastic model specialist). I played this game a lot and don't feel that any figure is in danger of losing parts or breaking up. I tried but can't even find the 2 soldiers with the glued on bayonets, it al looks great.

The detail and scale make The Great War's soldiers so much better then The cheap plastic Memoir 44 ones. If you are still bothered by the plastic models leave them on the spruce and use some of the excellent paper or block replacements available. This game is so good it is worth the money. It would be a shame if you don't get to experience it because at a few broken pieces of plastic.
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Keith Scholes
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From what I gather, this is the standard plastic that PSC use for their other wargaming figures. I have read that it is used because it holds detail better than softer plastic when being moulded, which is probably more of an issue for miniatures (as opposed to board) gamers where the aesthetics of the miniature is possibly given more consideration. To be fair as far as I can tell apart from the bayonet issue the figures don't seem to be especially fragile, although they haven't come in for much heavy handling yet. The Samurai Battles miniatures seem to be fragile due to the long thin spears rather than the bodies of the figures themselves, interestingly Zvezda are like PSC a miniatures company venturing into board games.

Personally I am working on a set of tiles for the game because I find tiles easier to use and manipulate than large numbers of individual figures, rather than any concern that I have about the fragility of the figures.

I must say that I have some sympathy for PSC for whom their figures and the game must have seemed a good fit. It is unfortunate that they seem to have run into some teething problems with the game and I hope that it doesn't dissuade them from continuing to develop what in many respects is an excellent game
 
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Martin Gallo
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From my casual observer perspective, those with more experience (modelers and miniaturists) have had fewer problems than the traditional boardgamers.
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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martimer wrote:
From my casual observer perspective, those with more experience (modelers and miniaturists) have had fewer problems than the traditional boardgamers.

...and traditional board games usually come with plastic parts desprued.

Until Samurai Battles the C&C titles with miniatures required no modeling experience or assembly... I don't think PSC nor Zvezda should be surprised at the complaints from the "board game" community. A little research (reading threads in the SB forums) or conversations with RB would have yielded valuable information on this subject. Having only three employees is no excuse for not gathering intelligence about your target audience and their expectations.

I think TGW is a better production effort than SB but there were missed opportunities that would have made this C&C title a smashing success.

[edit]
This should in no way be taken to mean that TGW is not a good game, it is a very good game (probably the best deck structure and distributions). But, it is missing some elements that could have made it the best game in the series (my opinion).
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Nick Dotzenrod
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My issue is that this is a board game, not a miniatures game, therefore the pieces should keep that in mind. Those experienced with miniatures of course will be fine with the miniatures provided because I know their quality is suite better for painting, however, this is a board game. I dont see how you could store this game and have the box shake around without these pieces breaking. Are owners of this game storing it in a special way? I can understand that if you are careful, you could probably free all the pieces without breaking any, but how long will these pieces last without breaking in the box provided?
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Michael Sweazey
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bassman211 wrote:
My issue is that this is a board game, not a miniatures game, therefore the pieces should keep that in mind. Those experienced with miniatures of course will be fine with the miniatures provided because I know their quality is suite better for painting, however, this is a board game. I dont see how you could store this game and have the box shake around without these pieces breaking. Are owners of this game storing it in a special way? I can understand that if you are careful, you could probably free all the pieces without breaking any, but how long will these pieces last without breaking in the box provided?

Actually, I don't think games like this need to be qualified as one kind of game or another. In this case, it is like many other games: a board game that utilizes miniatures. This kind of hybrid is becoming more and more common.

That said, while the hard plastic is more brittle than the soft, I have thrown all of my miniatures (and I have doubles of everything from the KS, so there are a lot of them) in a Plano that fits inside the main box, sorted by types (so there are a ton of infantry in each compartment), and I have had no damage even after transporting the game to various locations. Yes, I had approximately seven broken bayonets when I first cut my figures, but like I say, that was in a batch with twice the figures of the retail box. And let's face it, if you lose a couple of bayonets in the carpet (as I did), all you have is a figure with a rifle. It's not like it's missing a head.

Michael
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Mark McG
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StevenE wrote:

Until Samurai Battles the C&C titles with miniatures required no modeling experience or assembly... I don't think PSC nor Zvezda should be surprised at the complaints from the "board game" community. A little research (reading threads in the SB forums) or conversations with RB would have yielded valuable information on this subject. Having only three employees is no excuse for not gathering intelligence about your target audience and their expectations.

Well, there was some hue and cry over inserting figures into bases when FFG took over BattleLore, which Days of Wonder avoided by assembling the figures and bases. Moreover, in some instances the fit was poor.

There was also some backlash against stickering blocks when GMT issued C&C Ancients, though this has subsequently been regarded as therapeutic.

And the flag stickers in BattleCry150..

so it seems almost par for the course for component and assembly complaints to be made.

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Mayor Jim
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Perhaps all these games need a disclaimer on the box..."Some Assembly Required"? whistle
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Minot
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Minedog3 wrote:
StevenE wrote:

Until Samurai Battles the C&C titles with miniatures required no modeling experience or assembly... I don't think PSC nor Zvezda should be surprised at the complaints from the "board game" community. A little research (reading threads in the SB forums) or conversations with RB would have yielded valuable information on this subject. Having only three employees is no excuse for not gathering intelligence about your target audience and their expectations.

Well, there was some hue and cry over inserting figures into bases when FFG took over BattleLore, which Days of Wonder avoided by assembling the figures and bases. Moreover, in some instances the fit was poor.

There was also some backlash against stickering blocks when GMT issued C&C Ancients, though this has subsequently been regarded as therapeutic.

And the flag stickers in BattleCry150..

so it seems almost par for the course for component and assembly complaints to be made.


The only difference being, few had issues with GMT blocks or BC150 flagbears being broken after even careful assembly.

I generally avoid modeling build and the like out of preference, but I know (or at least thought I did), how to handle plastic soldiers. I have never had a set of figures as problematic as the British infantry in TGW.
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Mark McG
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NimitsTexan wrote:

The only difference being, few had issues with GMT blocks or BC150 flagbears being broken after even careful assembly.

well I know people that totally failed at C&C Ancients.. "what do you mean both sides.. it makes no sense!" ... OH WAIT... careful assembly. ok.

NimitsTexan wrote:

I generally avoid modeling build and the like out of preference, but I know (or at least thought I did), how to handle plastic soldiers. I have never had a set of figures as problematic as the British infantry in TGW.

Did you do Samurai Battles Exp 1 - Ninja Attack? There was a mounted bowman arm that was 'challenging'.

Thus far I've not experienced The Great War figures, and the bayonet issue isn't propelling me towards it. Bit more variety in the scenarios would be nice too. Theoretically Mons 1914 would be possible.
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Murray Fish
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I didn't find the British bayonet issue (no bayonets for the Germans - why not I wonder) to be a 'game breaker'. I used to make a few models years ago and after a couple of mistakes I got most of my chaps off their sprues with no dramas*.

I'd further add another two reasons for using this type of plastic:

1 It glues well with the standard model aeroplane cement.

2 It takes paint better than some soft plastics.

To the OP - from what I have seen here, the block-and-sticker crowd are doing this because it is their preferred way to play, not because of the way the miniatures work.


* I lost maybe five bayonets all up and none on the last sprue when I finally 'got it'. I also managed to lose a mortar leg but that was due to me talking and shipping at the same time.

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Stephen Meyers
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It's a game breaker for me.

I was highly interested until I heard of these broken bayonets report.

And despite my BGG subscription to this game web page. I have yet to
hear of any response at all from the publisher.

There is just no way that Ares games would have reacted in this manner
if there were broken spears reports from War of the Ring. Or Lost Battalion Games
or Columbia Games or Academy Games concerning reports of broken or disfigured
pewter figures, plastic figures or blocks or even cubes.

Come on, why are you guys defending a Game company who obviously cares not a wit
about it's product or it's customers.

And there is no fix in the works from the publisher?

Just an amazing acceptance of shoddy quality control from you guys.

I don't get that at all.





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Barks
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Constantinople wrote:
I have yet to hear of any response at all from the publisher...

From the Kickstarter page:

pscgames wrote:
The brit bayonets have been problem, I have to admit... But lets just say, we have noted this and solutions have been found for the future

I'm going to vent my exasperation here-

I love War of the Ring. Did you see how warped the figures were?



BattleCry- each side has identical, single-pose low-detail figures.

Memoir '44: figures and vehicles out of scale, generic one-size-fits-all approach to tanks and support weapons.

Is anyone complaining about assembling the figures for Space Hulk or Assassinorum?

Great War- detailed figures, different poses, no warping. The hard plastic is indestructible once cut out- put them in a box and give it a shake, you'll get no damage.

PS: Samurai Battles- yeah, I think Zvezda dropped the ball on this one given they already made plastic samurai in the same scale in a softer single piece plastic...
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Barks wrote:
Constantinople wrote:
I have yet to hear of any response at all from the publisher...

From the Kickstarter page:

pscgames wrote:
The brit bayonets have been problem, I have to admit... But lets just say, we have noted this and solutions have been found for the future

I'm going to vent my exasperation here-

I love War of the Ring. Did you see how warped the figures were?



BattleCry- each side has identical, single-pose low-detail figures.

Memoir '44: figures and vehicles out of scale, generic one-size-fits-all approach to tanks and support weapons.

Is anyone complaining about assembling the figures for Space Hulk or Assassinorum?

Great War- detailed figures, different poses, no warping. The hard plastic is indestructible once cut out- put them in a box and give it a shake, you'll get no damage.

I prefer the figures of BC150 and M44 (or War of the Ring, for that matter) over those of TGW for boardgaming purposes.
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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muzfish4 wrote:

* I lost maybe five bayonets all up and none on the last sprue when I finally 'got it'. I also managed to lose a mortar leg but that was due to me talking and shipping at the same time.

I lost 4 on the first sprue... Then I stopped
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bassman211 wrote:
My issue is that this is a board game, not a miniatures game, therefore the pieces should keep that in mind. Those experienced with miniatures of course will be fine with the miniatures provided because I know their quality is suite better for painting, however, this is a board game. I dont see how you could store this game and have the box shake around without these pieces breaking. Are owners of this game storing it in a special way? I can understand that if you are careful, you could probably free all the pieces without breaking any, but how long will these pieces last without breaking in the box provided?

Both the Samurai Battles and The Great War figures are molded in hard plastic. The big difference is that the pikes and banner poles on the SB figures are very true to scale and are thus very fine—easy to break. TGW's figures have delicate bayonets on a few of the British figures that snap almost as soon as they are touched by nippers.

Once they are off the sprues, TGW figures are very rugged—even the guys with bayonets that didn't break during the cutting-out. Currently, I have all my TGW figures in zip-lock bags and loose in the box.

I think the best minis for any C&C game to date are the ones in BC150. The plastic is just hard enough and the normally fine parts (swords and bayonets) are sculpted/molded broadly enough to cause no real problems.

BTW, in The Great War, the German figures don't even have bayonets. And on the British, only a couple on each sprue are really problematic for the experienced modeler. If you're really after it for the game, I recommend getting it and substituting figures with those from another game game you aren't currently playing. Infantry pieces from an old Axis and Allies set, for example, and using chips to denote which are mortars, machine guns, and bombers. I promise you that, from a gameplay standpoint, the difference will be non-existent and only slightly different from a visual one. Between 75–80% of the guys on the table are infantrymen anyway.
 
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Constantinople wrote:
It's a game breaker for me.

I was highly interested until I heard of these broken bayonets report.

And despite my BGG subscription to this game web page. I have yet to
hear of any response at all from the publisher.

There is just no way that Ares games would have reacted in this manner
if there were broken spears reports from War of the Ring. Or Lost Battalion Games
or Columbia Games or Academy Games concerning reports of broken or disfigured
pewter figures, plastic figures or blocks or even cubes.

Come on, why are you guys defending a Game company who obviously cares not a wit
about it's product or it's customers.

And there is no fix in the works from the publisher?

Just an amazing acceptance of shoddy quality control from you guys.

I don't get that at all.





Actually, the publisher had admitted that these are a bit of a problem. He is also sending replacement parts to those who request them. He had also stated that they will revise the way they cast future figures for expansions. I understand folks frustrations here...but I feel that the publisher had acknowledged them and is trying to make things right and is looking to adjust future expansions as well.
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Greg
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MayorJim wrote:
Constantinople wrote:
It's a game breaker for me.

I was highly interested until I heard of these broken bayonets report.

And despite my BGG subscription to this game web page. I have yet to
hear of any response at all from the publisher.

There is just no way that Ares games would have reacted in this manner
if there were broken spears reports from War of the Ring. Or Lost Battalion Games
or Columbia Games or Academy Games concerning reports of broken or disfigured
pewter figures, plastic figures or blocks or even cubes.

Come on, why are you guys defending a Game company who obviously cares not a wit
about it's product or it's customers.

And there is no fix in the works from the publisher?

Just an amazing acceptance of shoddy quality control from you guys.

I don't get that at all.





Actually, the publisher had admitted that these are a bit of a problem. He is also sending replacement parts to those who request them. He had also stated that they will revise the way they cast future figures for expansions. I understand folks frustrations here...but I feel that the publisher had acknowledged them and is trying to make things right and is looking to adjust future expansions as well.


Exactly Jim. The problem is acknowledged by PSC.

I broke off 7 bayonets and glued them back on. Not the end of the world. Even if I didn't glue them back on, not the end of the world. They function the same and don't look bad, just different.

As far as other game publishers listed. We've been waiting for an extremely long time for updated X-Terrain rules from Lost Battalion Games, as well as no Privates apparently being in the British army yet to be rectified.

As far as Ares, I know a bunch of people that got broken masts straight out of the box and had to fix them, and people that got sent replacements got more broken masts.

Ultimately, stuff happens and PSC should learn their lesson from this in the future and not have the bayonets be connected to the sprue or some other remedy.


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Nick Dotzenrod
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For those saying that PSC acknowledged the problem, do you think they will only change the plastic for future expansions? Or will they change the plastic for newly printed versions of the core game? If you feel the latter is true, when do you think the first reprint of the core game will be? Basically, I would rather wait for better plastic pieces then get the game now.
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Bob Gibson
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Finally! Thank you bassman211 and Constantinople for stating the truth - that the plastic pieces suck! If I had known that the mini's would be of such poor quality and be near impossible to separate from the frame, then I would not have purchased the game. The soldier with broken bayonets look like they're going into battle with short sticks! It's laughable and the game producer should be embarrassed!
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Martin Gallo
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Bob.Gibson wrote:
Finally! Thank you bassman211 and Constantinople for stating the truth - that the plastic pieces suck! If I had known that the mini's would be of such poor quality and be near impossible to separate from the frame, then I would not have purchased the game. The soldier with broken bayonets look like they're going into battle with short sticks! It's laughable and the game producer should be embarrassed!
High quality, but of a plastics that is unfamiliar to many gamers. Completely separate issue.

It is a game.
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Not to a consumer of which we all are!
 
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Nick Dotzenrod
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I understand that in terms of miniature quality, these miniatures are great. But again, this is a board game! PSC should have released two versions, a miniature Great War variant, and then the C&C one with the board and cards that utilizes appropriate plastic quality that all other board games with plastic miniatures (any FFG game, memoir 44, etc.) use. In my opinion, if the pieces cannot survive a Tom Vasel component drop without breaking, then they should not be used in a board game. I feel gamers used to miniatures think this is not a big deal, and that board gamers should stop whining, but whenever you get a board game, I think it is reasonable to not have to worry about taking a x-acto knife and spending 2 hours disassembling the game. My other solution would have been to release the game with block or counter tokens for the soldiers, thus decreasing the cost of the game too, then offering plastic unit packs for those who really enjoy the delicate miniatures. Then everyone would be happy.
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bassman211 wrote:
if the pieces cannot survive a Tom Vasel component drop without breaking, then they should not be used in a board game.

Once you have removed them from the sprue the British soldiers will happily survive a Tom Vasel component drop without breaking. People are making up problems that don't exist. I will happily film myself dropping soldiers from any hight to put that one to rest.

It is PSC's goal to use The Great War as a miniatures game like Zvezda does with their WW 2 stuff (just watch the Kickstarter intro). If you don't like it you don't have to buy it but it's not like they are a company wanting to diversify into the 'lucrative' board gaming business. PSC bought the license so it's theirs to use.

If you prefer wooden blocks you can make them yourself. If you prefer other softer plastic figures no one will prevent you from using them. Just as long as you buy 1 regular game box with the dice, rules, scenarios and the handy stuf like a game board, terrain, command cards and combat cards no one will bother you.

It's not unlike buying a Memoir 44 expansion, you need to buy a box with a few silly cheap pieces of plastic to get the good stuff (extra rules and scenarios). Don't get me started on what the British look like in Memoir 44 but hey I have the desert scenarios so it's worth it.

People pimp or adjust board games to their liking all the time. I myself went out of my way to get a more expensive first edition of Snowdownia (with less scenario decks, so I had to buy those separate!) just because I preferred wooden pieces over plastic ones. In the end it's up,to you if a game is worth it or not.
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