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Subject: First Player Advantage rss

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craig e
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Not sure if anyone else has found this but it seems that the first player has a massive advantage. They can run across the gang planks and start attacking an objective before the other player even has anyone on the board. A decent rush and it is easy for three heroes to take out an objective first turn.
1. deck gun takes out some minions on objective
2. three heroes use 2 of their three actions to run over (it's only 4 spaces away from deployment zone)
3. each hero has a single attack doing average of 2 to 3 damage each so average 6 to 9 damage of the 8 needed to take it out.

This gives them a permanent advantage in a third of the way to victory plus the passive from the objective. Also their minions have moved 1 zone making it so that the second player is always on the defensive.

I have played about 5 games so far and the first player has won every time fairly easily. Has anyone else seen this happen? Maybe I have missed something that allows this to happen. Thinking of making it so that the first turn heroes can only move once instead of twice. That would balance things out I believe.
 
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David Kartzinel
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Okay, not having gotten my game yet, I can't say for sure, but it seems like the easiest counter to that move for the second player would be to summoner a swashbuckler, gunner, and maybe a tank. Easy enough to gang up and destroy one or two heroes right off the bat. Have you tried that? I'd be curious to know what happened.
 
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craig e
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You get to kill them all, or most at least no problems for sure. This only sort of helps because they have no money on them so the reward is low. Plus the minions have already pushed onto the gangplanks making the only way to get across being rigging which is a bit risky so you can't take advantage that much. The first player also has tide cards to help them on their first defensive phase and the first player doesn't as you don't draw cards until the end of your turn.

I am thinking on changing up the starting minion positions. Instead of 4 on the center three objectives at the start, 2 on the objective and two on the square ahead of them. This would slow down heroes and prevent them from being able to run across the gangplank in the first turn unopposed.

I really like the game (and spent way to much on it plus expansions at gencon lol)but this one thing seems really broken and I'm surprised it didn't come up in play testing.
 
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Matt Hirsch
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Disclaimer: I haven't gotten my copy of the game and I haven't gotten to play it yet.

However, in the rules from the KS page it says "A Hero may never be deployed onto the same Deployment Point that another Hero was deployed onto this turn."

So you can't put all 3 heroes on one deployment point and launch them across 4 spaces to the same objective. Is that what you're doing? (or am I reading something else wrong in the rules or the board?)
 
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craig e
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I totally missed that rule. Thanks, that really makes all the difference in the world. Funny how a little sentence can do that Thank you for pointing that out.
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Rob White
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Also, I believe both players start the game with 3 cards in hand.
 
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Michael Shinall
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ce13 wrote:
Not sure if anyone else has found this but it seems that the first player has a massive advantage. They can run across the gang planks and start attacking an objective before the other player even has anyone on the board. A decent rush and it is easy for three heroes to take out an objective first turn.
1. deck gun takes out some minions on objective
2. three heroes use 2 of their three actions to run over (it's only 4 spaces away from deployment zone)
3. each hero has a single attack doing average of 2 to 3 damage each so average 6 to 9 damage of the 8 needed to take it out.

This gives them a permanent advantage in a third of the way to victory plus the passive from the objective. Also their minions have moved 1 zone making it so that the second player is always on the defensive.

I have played about 5 games so far and the first player has won every time fairly easily. Has anyone else seen this happen? Maybe I have missed something that allows this to happen. Thinking of making it so that the first turn heroes can only move once instead of twice. That would balance things out I believe.


First player goes, fires Deck Gun on Objective- Deck gun has 4 shots. You'd have to land all 4 to wipe out the Deckhands on the objective. On average you're going to kill 2.

Hero A uses two move actions to move up and attack.

Hero B and C cannot reach the point without Rigging, and thus risking falling Overboard.

BUT, even if they succeed, it will be 1 attack each. Most attacks will average 2 hits, meaning in the end you're still only going have done 6 damage to the point.

More so, you've now left all 3 of your Heroes in the open. Player B can now spawn a Gunner, who will have 3 shots on Hero A, spawn a Swashbuckler, who will have 2 full rounds of attacks on a Hero, and... Well the third is their preference, but regardless they're going to have an attack.

Overall, when I see people playing, the first time someone plays, their natural instinct is the zerg rush... until they lose their Heroes from overextending and their opponent's get 2 rounds to decimate their objectives.

Just some friendly advice- don't zerg Turn 1
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Cameron Knees
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This same question was asked before. One of the Devs said that 1st player advantage is countered by 2nd players deckhands attacking their opponents first. (By the time they reach at the gang planks)
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Max Maloney
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JJJBonez wrote:
This same question was asked before. One of the Devs said that 1st player advantage is countered by 2nd players deckhands attacking their opponents first. (By the time they reach at the gang planks)

Speaking of devs, the post above yours is the game designer.
 
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Cameron Knees
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Dormammu wrote:
JJJBonez wrote:
This same question was asked before. One of the Devs said that 1st player advantage is countered by 2nd players deckhands attacking their opponents first. (By the time they reach at the gang planks)

Speaking of devs, the post above yours is the game designer.


Yes, it was Michael who also noted that player 2 has his deckhands attack player 1s deckhands first.

With this, along with the other possible outcomes that can happen in start game, the answer is no. First player doesn't have an advantage.

Ps. Can't wait for my copy arrrh
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William Korner
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Tomah
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Ive played 3 games so far and first player team has only won once.
 
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Tim Bailey
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Rob in Richmond wrote:
Also, I believe both players start the game with 3 cards in hand.


Nope. It says in the rules you start with no cards, but draw up to 3 at the end of turn.
 
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Stefanescu Paul
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I have played about 10 games(and played it correctly). I can say for sure that once you have learned the game, the first player have definitely an advantage by making a rush play on his first turn. Sure 1 or maybe 2 of the attacking player heroes will die but they will re-spawn in time to protect the objectives or rig to finish the job. The second player will start with an objective damaged.
You will probably see this after you will receive the game and play some games.
Changing the starting positions of the minions might help (adding 1 or 2 minions in front of the objectives for second player) or maybe not firing the deck gun on the first turn (not tested any of this yet).
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A Tang

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Michael Shinall wrote:
ce13 wrote:
Not sure if anyone else has found this but it seems that the first player has a massive advantage. They can run across the gang planks and start attacking an objective before the other player even has anyone on the board. A decent rush and it is easy for three heroes to take out an objective first turn.
1. deck gun takes out some minions on objective
2. three heroes use 2 of their three actions to run over (it's only 4 spaces away from deployment zone)
3. each hero has a single attack doing average of 2 to 3 damage each so average 6 to 9 damage of the 8 needed to take it out.

This gives them a permanent advantage in a third of the way to victory plus the passive from the objective. Also their minions have moved 1 zone making it so that the second player is always on the defensive.

I have played about 5 games so far and the first player has won every time fairly easily. Has anyone else seen this happen? Maybe I have missed something that allows this to happen. Thinking of making it so that the first turn heroes can only move once instead of twice. That would balance things out I believe.


First player goes, fires Deck Gun on Objective- Deck gun has 4 shots. You'd have to land all 4 to wipe out the Deckhands on the objective. On average you're going to kill 2.

Hero A uses two move actions to move up and attack.

Hero B and C cannot reach the point without Rigging, and thus risking falling Overboard.

BUT, even if they succeed, it will be 1 attack each. Most attacks will average 2 hits, meaning in the end you're still only going have done 6 damage to the point.

More so, you've now left all 3 of your Heroes in the open. Player B can now spawn a Gunner, who will have 3 shots on Hero A, spawn a Swashbuckler, who will have 2 full rounds of attacks on a Hero, and... Well the third is their preference, but regardless they're going to have an attack.

Overall, when I see people playing, the first time someone plays, their natural instinct is the zerg rush... until they lose their Heroes from overextending and their opponent's get 2 rounds to decimate their objectives.

Just some friendly advice- don't zerg Turn 1


Let's say one hero from first player team gets ko, and it takes the second player the entire first turn to do so.

At end of phase 1, you'd have
First player team one dead player
Second player team one near dead objective with 2 health remAining

How is this anywhere near balanced? Objectives are what win the game. Would you rather start with take 6 hits to your objective or start the game with one less player?

In real mobas, that would be an insane advantage. Nobody in any moba is able to deal 75 percent damage in the first minute to a tower.

Perhaps objectives should have immunity of some sort to start. Or a first blood bonus.
 
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Sporky Patrignani
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Played our 2nd game last night (3 vs 3) and we agree, there's definitely an advantage on 1st player using the normal rules.

Zerg rush did leave us in the open, but our Turn 1 Phase 1 (T1P1) attacks effectively left them without any deckhands to swing back on their turn. Also, by staging all 3 heroes in front of gangplanks, we were able to block their deckhand/bosun advance.

That aside, It got really unbalanced additionally when we had a full compliment of coins and Tide Cards to counter their strategic hero retaliation on T1P2.

We're trying to come up with a few ideas to nullify the advantage, but finding a balanced solution is hard.

The best we've come up with so far is:
1)For the entire Turn 1, no gangplanks are down. Thematically, the ships just pulled up to each other and troops are mustering. Heroes can still rig if they want, but at least it's a rolling risk vs a walk across.
2) Starting player doesn't get Tide cards until 2nd player draw phase.

Thoughts?
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L VonMeister
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Haven't played mine yet, but how about gangplanks coming down one-at-a-time randomly (d3 roll) until all three are down on 3rd turn.
Does that sound feasible? Or just adding unnecessary game goo?
 
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David Kartzinel
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I'd say unnecessary game goo.

Of course, I still think that there really isn't a first player advantage - I didn't notice any significant advantage when I played.
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L VonMeister
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dkartzinel wrote:
I'd say unnecessary game goo.

Of course, I still think that there really isn't a first player advantage - I didn't notice any significant advantage when I played.

Thanks for the input. I'll just make sure my girlfriend gets first go.
If I go first and wipe out half or more of her troops, she'll believe it to be unbalanced/futile having never played it before.
Just trying to avoid her wanting suddenly to play something else after only going through one turn of the game!

It does look like there's an advantage (having no practical experience yet) but I'll play it by the rules and see how she goes.

She's a far better dice-roller than I am, so this may be much ado about nothing....
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Max Maloney
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The only part that seems questionable to me is player 1 getting Tide cards before player 2. I'd almost suggest player 2 START the game with Tide cards.
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Sporky Patrignani
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Dormammu wrote:
The only part that seems questionable to me is player 1 getting Tide cards before player 2. I'd almost suggest player 2 START the game with Tide cards.


Yeah, we toyed with this idea too, but in a fair amount of cases, the cards would be dead weight as they require a "hero" on your side of the field.

In theory, you could have them draw 3 during hero deployment, under the understanding that they don't get to draw back up to 3 at the end of their turn. But then it's slightly unbalanced toward Player 2 if they get cards that allow them an edge on attacking, because P1 didn't have that. And then you also possibly have to worry about Kraken summoning earlier...
 
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Dave Kudzma
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I went first in our inaugural play last night. We're very experience gamers, and I was the teacher (who "knew the rules best"), and nearly lost.

I was the first to have a hero get KO'd thanks to being to aggressive. That's a REALLY big disadvantage. I think the Kraken showing up and hurting my opponent more is what actually saved me.

I think it also depends on what tide cards you draw at the end of your turn as 1st player btw. 2 of mine were "friendly turn", so that didn't give me any real advantage.

My opponent also rigged early while my heroes were on their ship, and destroyed my deck gun; which also sucks A LOT.
 
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Dieter C.
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Michael Shinall wrote:

Just some friendly advice- don't zerg Turn 1


I came here after playing first time with friend and i did not know about this so I did it (zerg) and won in two turns. A bit lucky with the rolls but still...

Can we make it an official rule for example that first turn you can max send 2 heroes over to the enemy ship?
 
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David Kartzinel
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If you won in two turns, it seems most likely to me you guys did something wrong or your opponent didn't do anything to stop you - that means you did 24 points of damage spread across 3 objectives while...his guys sat there and watched? Not seeing how this is possible given standard attacks are 3-4 dice each and each hero gets 3 activations. Assuming two 3 dice base attacks and one 4 dice base attack, you would have to roll 8/9 hits twice and 8/12 hits. You'd have to have the luckiest rolls ever and an opponent who ignored what you were doing or rolled the worst for this to happen. I suppose it is statistically possible, but it's an outlier. Never seen anything like this in my games.
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Dieter C.
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I played once the night before and for my opponent it was his first game. My opponent obviously made mistakes (unsuccesfully attacking my brute and leaving objectives wide open, bringing in the wrong heroes etc...) The second game he started and did the same thing (zerg) and i was able to succesfully defend and win that game. But still it felt like the first player has an advantage if he starts this way...
 
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kalvin connor
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dc_gamer wrote:
I played once the night before and for my opponent it was his first game. My opponent obviously made mistakes (unsuccesfully attacking my brute and leaving objectives wide open, bringing in the wrong heroes etc...) The second game he started and did the same thing (zerg) and i was able to succesfully defend and win that game. But still it felt like the first player has an advantage if he starts this way...


Wait, so he failed at zerging as first player, you win, and you still think the first player has the advantage? Can this logic be explained?
 
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