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Subject: Do Improved Deflector Screens work against cloaked mines? rss

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Justin Hare
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Quick check. I'm fairly certain they do, but I wanted to see if I missed anything.

IDS:
When defending, during the Compare Results step, if you have any Active Shields, cancel 1 [HIT] or [CRIT] result. Discard this Upgrade if all of your Shields are destroyed. This Upgrade may only be purchased for a ship with a Hull value of 3 or less and no ship may be equipped with more than one "Improved Deflector Screens" Upgrade.

CM:
During the Planning Phase, you may discard this card to place a Minefield Token within Range 1 of your ship (in any direction), but not within Range 3 of an enemy ship. If an enemy ship passes within Range 1 of the token, roll 3 attack dice (-1 if the target ship immediately performs a [SCAN] Action). Any [HIT] or [CRIT] damage the target ship as normal. The affected ship does not roll any defense dice.

This topic on WORF says you are defending even if you roll no defense.
http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=18...

So, did I miss anything? IDS has no combat phase reference or even a reference to an attack. It reads like they do work against mines. Then again, mine rules are goofy.
 
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David Montgomery
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They should work. Until WORF says otherwise.
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Adam Jones
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Your link is referencing the Combat Phase specifically..."No. When rolling 0 defense dice for any reason (natural Evasion value, Opponent's Scan tokens, or prevented from rolling defense dice) you do not skip any of the steps in the Combat Phase."

Whether that means you ever 'Compare Results' may still be open to debate. My instinct would be the 'when defending' means any time attack dice are rolled against you, not just in the combat phase.
 
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Albert
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Even though I would love to have Improved Deflector Screens work against cloaked mines, I believe they do not since I do not know if there is a compare results step for the mine damage especially since we know you can't use things like evade tokens. However, if you were to have Multi-adaptive shields and are now allowed to roll defense against mines, then there would definitely have to be a compare results step and I think it would work.
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Justin Hare
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axpkai wrote:
Even though I would love to have Improved Deflector Screens work against cloaked mines, I believe they do not since I do not know if there is a compare results step for the mine damage especially since we know you can't use things like evade tokens. However, if you were to have Multi-adaptive shields and are now allowed to roll defense against mines, then there would definitely have to be a compare results step and I think it would work.

For the local Q3, I used a combination of Gul Damar on an Alpha Hunter with Navigational Deflectors and Improved Deflector Screens. As long as I still had shields, Alpha Hunter was immune to mines. I was wondering if I could have shaved 4 points and picked up a different upgrade.


The trouble I have is all of the examples I find on WORF are during combat phase. Though if you read the FAQ under Tactical Cube 138 - Borg Missile, you can find a reference to not skipping defending when it says to roll no defense and it does not have the caveat about combat phase.

Honestly, I was trying to find an example of BAHA vs Cloaked Mines. If there was some kind of ruling saying BAHA converts the crits from a cloaked mine roll down to hits, then I would say IDS absolutely works as well. BAHA affecting mines would dictate that you still go through the full attack steps.
 
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Waspinator
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This thread is why that whole "not everything works outside of the combat phase" rules concept is incredibly terrible.
 
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Evan
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TheWaspinator wrote:
This thread is why that whole "not everything works outside of the combat phase" rules concept is incredibly terrible.

Apart from tokens and effects that specify "during the combat phase," have we encountered anything that cares whether an attack is in the combat phase?

edit: actually, Tournament Rules #28 ("Any other abilities [ie: not tokens] that do not state they only work during the combat phase may be used to modify attack dice or defense dice outside of the combat phase.") specifically says otherwise.
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Albert
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My friend mentioned something that I thought might apply to this situation. Is the cloaked mine damage an attack? I think those rulings are in regards to things like Admiral Worf that states its an attack that happens outside of combat. The damage from a cloaked mine is similar to hitting an obstacle. So for example, if you run into an obstacle, or have a low hull ship that runs into a borg tac cube, should those be treated as an attack and therefore would have all the steps such as compare results. The same can be said for crit dmg cards that have you roll a die to see if you take additional damage. I believe in those situations, it isn't really an attack.
 
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Waspinator
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The FAQ entry for Cloaked Mines uses the phrase "attacked by each minefield". They are not the same as obstacles.
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Robert Fletcher
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Unfortunately, cloaked mines are not an “attack”. I wish they were, but the game has been fairly clear that the damage is an out of combat situation.

The card itself reads in part: If an enemy ship passes within range 1 of the token, roll 3 attack dice (-1 if target ship immediately performs a [SCAN] Action). Any [HIT] or [CRITICAL] damages the target ship as normal. The affected ship does not roll defense dice. The text says nothing about an attack occurring. The FAQ mostly verifies this with Antimatter Mines.

In the FAQ for Antimatter Mines reads: When dropped on top of the Defiant, it is still considered to be "defending," even though it does not roll any defense dice. Also note, this is not the case when the Defiant moves into mines (Antimatter or Cloaked) on a later turn. Here, the FAQ clearly states that the Defiant is NOT defending against mines in later rounds.

This explanation I find very relevant. The Defiant reads: When defending, convert all of your opponent’s [CRITICAL] results into [HIT] results. The Antimatter Mine, while citing Cloaked Mines, indicates that anytime the Defiant flies over the mines after the round it was placed, the Defiant is not defending and cannot trigger its ability. Improved Deflector Screen only works, “When defending . . .” It seems that the FAQ is fairly clear that the Cloaked Mines do not trigger a defense.

As for the FAQ where it says, “Each ship may only be attacked by each minefield once per turn,” it contradicts the previous FAQ ruling and also conflicts with the FAQ where it says the cloaked mines, “[work] the same as the normal rules for a Minefield Token . . . just a wider range.”

Minefield rules say: When a ship executes a maneuver in which either the Maneuver template or the ship’s base physically overlaps a Minefield token, this triggers the text of whichever card placed the Minefield Token in the play area. Based on this language, we look back to the text of the Cloaked Mines which makes no reference to an attack.

On a side note, Minefields are actually a subsection of Obstacles on page 22 of the Rule Book, not in any section about resolving combat. The Minefield Rules also replicate the obstacle rules except that the ship does not lose an action. This further verifies that mines do not constitute an attack.

The extra text on the card also adds to the confusion: The affected ship does not roll defense dice. This language however is additional color language that only restates the rules as we saw with the Ezri v. Rom example. In the same ship pack of the ISS Defiant, two cards came out that targeted ships’ [TECH]. Rom said “This ability may be used against a ship that is Cloaked”, while Ezri did not make mention of this clause. The additional language on Rom does not somehow limit Ezri’s ability against cloaked ships. Thus, the additional language on the Cloaked Mines should not be considered differently from things like obstacles or critical damage cards that do damage (e.g. Console Fire).

If people wish to maintain the idea that cloaked mines are an attack, that is fine. I wish they would errata them in general; unfortunately until that time, we are left with the card as it exists. If any person feels that mines are an attack and allow for defensive responses, then discuss it with your TO for the final ruling.
 
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Ted Kay
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They definitely are an attack, otherwise Gul Damar wouldn't work.

Defiant doesn't change the crits because an opponent isn't hitting Defiant, the mines are.
 
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Robert Fletcher
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I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the Defiant. The Defiant does not say "when defending from an opponent's attack," it only says, "when defending . . ." The fact it doesn't happen with mines can only mean that it doesn't defend.

As for Damar, he works on mines because his card specifically says that, "attacks made against your ship with Minefields are at -2 attack dice." As you see, they used the word attack again perhaps creating the presumption that mines are attacks. However, Navigational Deflectors does not specifically identify it as an attack nor does Multi-Adaptive Shields. This appears to be the continued lack of consistency in language used on cards.

Again, this is not a debate that will be settled on the forums. If we get clarity from Wizkids, we will all rejoice. Until then, we rely on our TOs.
 
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Evan
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Tournament rules wrote:
41. Mines are considered a special attack even if dropped on an opponent’s ship. Attacks with Mines may not be modified by any card text that affects attacks.

Of course, that raises the question of whether Improved Deflectors is "modifying" the attack. I'm guessing not. (For starters, Compare Results happens after all the usual modifying has taken place.)
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David Griffin
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In a situation like there where there is no actual ruling, all you can do is ask the TO for a ruling. If you're playing casually, try to discuss it before the game and roll the dice for Battlestations if you have two different opinions. Not satisfying (I'd rather a ruling) but what's our choice?

Heck casually, I'd probably let the cloaked player have his evade dice out of combat unless his cloak turned red that turn.
 
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Justin Hare
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Primerafik wrote:
I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the Defiant. The Defiant does not say "when defending from an opponent's attack," it only says, "when defending . . ." The fact it doesn't happen with mines can only mean that it doesn't defend.

The text on USS Defiant (according to the Dracos site) proceeds to reference "your opponent's" crits results. So his point applies here. Mines are not an opponent. They are from an opponent if dropped during an attack.


Quote:
As for Damar, he works on mines because his card specifically says that, "attacks made against your ship with Minefields are at -2 attack dice." As you see, they used the word attack again perhaps creating the presumption that mines are attacks. However, Navigational Deflectors does not specifically identify it as an attack nor does Multi-Adaptive Shields. This appears to be the continued lack of consistency in language used on cards.

http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2107&p...

Look at the last post. All ships that are hit by Multi-Kinetic Neutronic Mines are considered defending. It also repeatedly calls being hit by mines an attack.

I hadn't had a chance to dig into this until I got home from work. From what I can see after searching, I think I have the answer. Nonetheless, I will continue to run it by TOs until we get something official. I did submit this one to WORF.


Here's to the infinite wait for STAW 2.0 with a rewritten rules section that simplifies this by ditching a differentiation between combat phase and out of combat phase attacks.
 
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Waspinator
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The thing is that, once placed, the mines make attacks independently of the player so anything that references your opponent or enemy ships gets kind of weird.
 
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Robert Fletcher
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Church14 wrote:

The text on USS Defiant (according to the Dracos site) proceeds to reference "your opponent's" crits results. So his point applies here. Mines are not an opponent. They are from an opponent if dropped during an attack.

http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2107&p...

Look at the last post. All ships that are hit by Multi-Kinetic Neutronic Mines are considered defending. It also repeatedly calls being hit by mines an attack.

I hadn't had a chance to dig into this until I got home from work. From what I can see after searching, I think I have the answer. Nonetheless, I will continue to run it by TOs until we get something official. I did submit this one to WORF.


Here's to the infinite wait for STAW 2.0 with a rewritten rules section that simplifies this by ditching a differentiation between combat phase and out of combat phase attacks.

Good point on the Defiant. The term opponent is referenced later thus adding to the ambiguity.

As for Multikentic Mines, those specially allow ships outside of range 1 to roll defense dice. That combined with the less than stellar quality control form WK, the company has failed to adopt proper wording for different in game events such as a mine attack vs. an activation phase attack vs. a combat phase attack. (On a side note, Admiral Worf's attack outside of combat should not negate cloaking . . .) It also doesn't help that Mines have two different types of "attacks": when they are placed and subsequent turns.

I still think Evan's comment from Tournament Rule 41 is instructive.

On the bright side, at least our days are entertained with these discussions and rule analysis.
 
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