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Subject: Game is dead at local game stores rss

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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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Torrance
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Unfortunate how the system/game has devolved... They got me for about $250 overall. I keep hoping someone will revise the game into something more enjoyable.
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Brian Johnsen
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Rockin Rocko wrote:
Well the game is officially dead at all of our games stores on the south side of Indy.
I don't know how far south you are, but as far as I know, it's still doing well on the north side of Indy. I only play in the ship-pure OP tournaments at Saltire Games (on the first Saturday of the month), but they also run "anything goes" OP tournaments (on the third Wednesday of the month) that disregard the 50-point cap and 3 ship minimum. We did lose some players after the two Borg OP series, but we've actually had an influx of new players recently, which is very good to see. A lot of our players also play at some of the other stores running OPs on the north side.

Forgot to add:
In the ship-pure events, we really don't see a lot of power gaming. Sure, there are some combos that come up, but nothing crazy. Most of the players fly fleets without any tricks or gimmicks, and maneuvering is very important.
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Steve Smith
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MormegilND wrote:
We did lose some players after the two Borg OP series, but we've actually had an influx of new players recently, which is very good to see.

Forgot to add:
In the ship-pure events, we really don't see a lot of power gaming. Sure, there are some combos that come up, but nothing crazy. Most of the players fly fleets without any tricks or gimmicks, and maneuvering is very important.

The Borg nerf has given STAW a second life. It's just too bad that it took so long for WK to implement it as a lot of players were lost over the year of Borg.

Two of the stores still running STAW events in Winnipeg also run fleet penalty pure, which, as said, cuts down the powergaming and greatly adds to most people's enjoyment of the game.
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Craig H
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Rockin Rocko wrote:
Well the game is officially dead at all of our games stores on the south side of Indy. I will be honest I punched out late last year when they kept adding overly convoluted rules and so called crew abilities. At some point when you start focusing on diehard hardcore players you lose a much larger audience and I think that is what has happened with this game. I always preferred a much more strategic space ship combat game with a little card deck building added in, over a card deck building game focus with a side of space ship combat game.

Come join us in X-Wing...we have cookies...

Okay, we don't have cookies..but we do have better...nah, that will just start an argument...
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Aaron Morgan
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Rockin Rocko wrote:
Is it more true ship to ship combat versus a card game dressed up with space ships?

Part of the problem with STAW is that the system really works better as a dogfighting game.

X-Wing has plenty of upgrade cards available for ships, but in most cases they are more strict about what ships can equip them, and the pilots are a part of the ship cards (instead of separate, as STAW's Captains) so you don't see the cross-faction weirdness (I think Boba Fett is the only character who appears in two factions).
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Jonathan Kinney
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Interestingly both STAW and Xwing are dead at my location. I think it takes a special kind of person to be a miniatures gamer. As a result it's pretty much only War Machine and a little bit of D&D Attack Wing (at least until the Tiamet is awarded). Everything else is dead. We're a boardgaming and Magic store otherwise.

And it's taken me a few hundred (dare I say thousand) bucks to realize that I'm not a miniatures guy. I like the social atmosphere of boardgaming (even though I love deep games and I love to win) and not the seemingly uber-competitive nature of miniatures. Anything with Prize support has devolved into something that is just not fun. I don't like what it does to me and I don't like the crowd it brings in. And I'm guessing by the fact that we don't do it anymore that others aren't fond of it either.
 
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David Griffin
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Same here. The XWing groups aren't much in evidence here either. Good game, but as good as the game is from a balance and strategic depth standpoint, I like more variety in the strategy. That and the fact that I'm a die hard Star Trek fan makes me gravitate toward STAW.

Though I have to admit I like Armada.
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I have almost ditched STAW for Armada, but 1) I am already heavily invested in STAW, 2) Armada is a lot more expensive (although better scale), 3) I have and will likely always be a bigger Star Trek fan (it kills me that Star Wars as an overall franchise is handled much better (movies, shows, games, etc.) We cannot even get a TV show, and I pretend Into Darkeness is something else entirely.
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Hoss Cartwright
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Thats all great news. Hopefully this is the end of that game and they will resize the minis to less than an inch and make a strategic based game of star trek, as opposed to "collectible" where they are forcing people to waste money buying enough ships for a decent battle. What Star Trek francise needs is strategic space map and bags of hundreds of micro starships, so the war could be represented ( Like Federation Space)
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Steve Smith
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Kahlessthedude wrote:
I have almost ditched STAW for Armada, but 1) I am already heavily invested in STAW, 2) Armada is a lot more expensive (although better scale), 3) I have and will likely always be a bigger Star Trek fan (it kills me that Star Wars as an overall franchise is handled much better (movies, shows, games, etc.) We cannot even get a TV show, and I pretend Into Darkeness is something else entirely.

I am heavily invested in STAW, X-Wing, Armada, and Imperial Assault.

My preferences of the four are:
1. Imperial Assault - great scenario based play and extremely tactically challenging
2. STAW - fantastic scenario-based play and getting better balanced
3. X-Wing - well balanced but boring - same battle over six obstacles every damn time
4. Armada - takes a long, dreary 2.5 hours for each round in a 400 point tournament and the 12 "missions" are not really scenarios but merely just rules modifiers

I have vids of all four games on my youtube channel and I am the Manitoba X-Wing Regionals champion.

STAW has more potential than X-Wing or Armada as a fun, themed spaceship game - just stop playing mixed faction. It suffered horrifically from game imbalances but the designers and WORF are starting to turn things around again.
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Stormtrooper721 wrote:
Kahlessthedude wrote:
I have almost ditched STAW for Armada, but 1) I am already heavily invested in STAW, 2) Armada is a lot more expensive (although better scale), 3) I have and will likely always be a bigger Star Trek fan (it kills me that Star Wars as an overall franchise is handled much better (movies, shows, games, etc.) We cannot even get a TV show, and I pretend Into Darkeness is something else entirely.

I am heavily invested in STAW, X-Wing, Armada, and Imperial Assault.

My preferences of the four are:
1. Imperial Assault - great scenario based play and extremely tactically challenging
2. STAW - fantastic scenario-based play and getting better balanced
3. X-Wing - well balanced but boring - same battle over six obstacles every damn time
4. Armada - takes a long, dreary 2.5 hours for each round in a 400 point tournament and the 12 "missions" are not really scenarios but merely just rules modifiers

I have vids of all four games on my youtube channel and I am the Manitoba X-Wing Regionals champion.

STAW has more potential than X-Wing or Armada as a fun, themed spaceship game - just stop playing mixed faction. It suffered horrifically from game imbalances but the designers and WORF are starting to turn things around again.

Yea, I came to a similar conclusion, and now that the year of the Borg is over I am fully back on board with STAW, and Imperial Assualt is my secondary since the upkeep cost is much lower. I made the decision not do Armada and jump back with STAW, and am looking forward to the upcoming OP. Thank you for the perspective.
 
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Val Cassotta
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Stormtrooper721 wrote:
I am heavily invested in STAW, X-Wing, Armada, and Imperial Assault.

My preferences of the four are:
1. Imperial Assault - great scenario based play and extremely tactically challenging
2. STAW - fantastic scenario-based play and getting better balanced
3. X-Wing - well balanced but boring - same battle over six obstacles every damn time
4. Armada - takes a long, dreary 2.5 hours for each round in a 400 point tournament and the 12 "missions" are not really scenarios but merely just rules modifiers

I think it depends on how you play the games. I play all those same games, but experiences vary.

Also, are the preferences based on OP or casual or both?

For me, combining OP and casual I'd have a different list (as I am sure many others will):

1) X-Wing - Well balanced (overall), and there are scenarios that come with the base game, large ships and epic ships that are all quite good. Those scenarios have some nice tokens for various scenario based objectives. I wish the individual ships came with scenarios as well, or that they would release some campaign packs (tell me that a "Deathstar" pack with turbolasers wouldn't fly off the shelves?). OP play is a bit boring with only 12 obstacles to choose from (16 if your store allows EPIC ship obstacles), yet I see almost every ship type represented on the board at the events I attend (last year at GenCon my list included a TIE Adv and over the course of the event I encountered every ship made other than the TIE Bomber). FFG also makes an effort to address deficiencies in older ships with new cards, breathing new life into even their earliest released ships. But, even with the "boring" choice of obstacles, the OP play is almost always a fun and challenging experience.

2) Armada - Entertaining game, still in its infancy and already quite fun. But, it does take a while to get through. I disagree a bit on the objective just being rules changes - depending on the draw of event cards can really change how the whole game is played. Tactics are dictated by those cards, and can lead to totally different games even with the same lists and players. For OP, it could use some streamlining to speed it up - for now, this is a game for home play (for me).

3) STAW - Many of the scenarios are great, and casual play is a lot of fun. Balance is not exactly there, especially compared to the other 3 on the list. Unless you are fortunate enough to be close to a store that puts their own restriction on things (ex: fleet pure), OPs tend to be hit or miss, and it is more often a miss. Interesting OP events become meaningless as people use the vast amount of cross faction cards to make ridiculous combos that the OP design team apparently never considered - these builds turn what should be a fun OP scenario into an exercise in stupidity. I have found several of the STAW OPs to be a downright waste of time - flying around chasing a near unhittable ship while a borg took me apart was my favorite. I also saddens me that with so many ships out there, over 1/2 of them never showed up at the OPs I played at.

4) Imperial Assault - Tons of great scenarios, comparable to my old timer favorite Heroquest in many ways. My one complaint is the sadly the same thing I like - that it feels like a dungeon crawler with a Star Wars theme slapped on it. Never tried OP events or Skirmish mode for it.


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Tom Tjarks
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There is a part of me that wants to keep collecting the ships because I've always loved the Star Trek ships, but the whole rules fiasco from late last year/early this year has made me sour on the game itself. There are still some X-Wing groups in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, but everyone I know who was running ST:AW events have just stopped. Product is just sitting on the shelf (with D&D Attack Wing sitting unsold right next to it.)
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Roy Stephens
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Larry DeStefano
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Dreamshadow wrote:
There is a part of me that wants to keep collecting the ships because I've always loved the Star Trek ships, but the whole rules fiasco from late last year/early this year has made me sour on the game itself. There are still some X-Wing groups in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, but everyone I know who was running ST:AW events have just stopped. Product is just sitting on the shelf (with D&D Attack Wing sitting unsold right next to it.)

We had two stores in our area at first, now down to just the one. The other store did a poor job of promoting or pushing it. The other store was doing real good till the Borg hit. Dropped us to like a base of 4-5 players, but starting to see a rise in players again 6-7 now hopefully more will join. A lot depends on the TO and if he can come up with some good home brew OP's as well will help.

I play everything but Imperial Assault or DDAW. I'm a trek fan by heart so that is my personal preference, but the other games are good as well.
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Raymond Albright
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my store is doing just fine

we average 6-8, down from up to 12, but almost all of the original 12 still play, just not as frequently so it isn't always the same people.

we play twice a month, rotate scenarios with the OP events. and 1 other store in the area gets 4-6 regularly and another 2-4.

Depending on Wizkids investment, I'm inclined to believe the game is in a lull as the changes take root, but could get itself back up to another high soon.

That sort of up and down popularity happened a lot with heroclix while i was still playing it, and they still have huge crowds for that at my venue.
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Steven Redfearn
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Dreamshadow wrote:
There is a part of me that wants to keep collecting the ships because I've always loved the Star Trek ships, but the whole rules fiasco from late last year/early this year has made me sour on the game itself. There are still some X-Wing groups in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, but everyone I know who was running ST:AW events have just stopped. Product is just sitting on the shelf (with D&D Attack Wing sitting unsold right next to it.)

Where in DFW are you? I live in Frisco and go to at least 3 events a month, mostly in Plano.
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Tom Tjarks
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South Fort Worth, mostly play at Collected TCU and sometimes at Y2Comics.
 
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Roy Stephens
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CraigH wrote:


Come join us in X-Wing...we have cookies...


Come join us in the Bay Area.... we have Star Trek Attack Wing...
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Steven Redfearn
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Dreamshadow wrote:
South Fort Worth, mostly play at Collected TCU and sometimes at Y2Comics.

OK, I play mostly at Madness Comics and Games Plano, Hobby town Plano, and Collected Plano, they're all in about the same area. There are a couple guys that show up from FW from time to time.
 
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Max POWER
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hockeyjedi wrote:
I'm glad no one was home when I saw this. I nearly shattered windows with my laugher. Well done sir.
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Chris Adams
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hockeyjedi wrote:
CraigH wrote:


Come join us in X-Wing...we have cookies...


Come join us in the Bay Area.... we have Star Trek Attack Wing...

Wish we did by me. Resistance is Futile killed it by us (I guess resistance wasn't futile after all...). People didn't like being forced to buy blind ships for factions they didn't want (I think the Vulcan ship was the only one people actually wanted. The rest were nifty, but nobody really used them). We had 8 players for RiF 1, 4 for RiF 2, and three for RiF 3. After that, there were none. People switched to D&D (was played at the same time as STAW and every month more and more people went to their table over Trek) or just left the game entirely (one guy stormed out when he had to adapt to the 50 point limit at the last minute and had two ships destroyed in the first volley due to Having no planning time). He was never seen after that.

I guess most people just got tired of a lot of the same scenarios (oh look, 6 months of borg scenarios) or realized they could win without caring about the rules (looking at you RiF 3). Even this month with "year of hell", my guess will be that everyone starts on opposite side of the wave and the battle will largely be over before they have to care about the actual scenario.

It's sad since the game is still very fun at home or in non-power gaming groups, but the OP events seem more like a chore rather than fun. They're all about dealing with the restrictions being forced upon you rather than options given to you. As such most people adopt a "kill them before the penalties affect you" mindset than "how can I use this to my advantage?". It just burnt people out.

The game isn't dead yet, but it feels like it's on life support.
 
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David Griffin
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How many of you would play if the "OP" had no prizes but merely an interesting scenario and the promise of a fun game?

Suppose they just picked a mission and everyone played it (on as many boards as needed)? Or suppose they held a special event with a bunch of ships against the Doomsday Machine?

You could be a lot more flexible about the rules if there wasn't any prize at stake.
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Val Cassotta
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I think a number of us do this - on casual game nights.

One of the most fun events we played at our LGS with X-Wing was a homemade mini-campaign with a chain of scenarios that all influenced the overall game for each side (Rebels and Imps - this was pre-Scum, even pre-epic).

So, yeah, I'd show up for a Wizkids kill the Doomsday machine. Doesn't have to be a ship prize, could even just be participation Scenario cards with the scenario on it, and maybe some tokens. Even with out that, I'd still be interested.
 
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Chris Adams
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carbon_dragon wrote:
How many of you would play if the "OP" had no prizes but merely an interesting scenario and the promise of a fun game?

Suppose they just picked a mission and everyone played it (on as many boards as needed)? Or suppose they held a special event with a bunch of ships against the Doomsday Machine?

You could be a lot more flexible about the rules if there wasn't any prize at stake.

Or make the OP prizes non-exclusive things. I think the X-Wing prizes (alternate art cards and acrylic tokens) are cool but not "must have!". Compare that to things like the Chang, Sutherland, and Krayton that had big cards that were big in OP events. It was a competitive cycle where you really had to win OP events to win big cards and ships in order to win other OP events.

That bloodthirsty trend made it so a lot of OP objectives were ignored (like why would anyone go to the aperture in RiF 3, or in Dominion War 4 did anyone actually Attack Starfleet HQ?). Plus it drives new people away. We had one guy start up around Resistance is Futile, but the lackluster events and competitive environment drove him away after a couple of months.

That's part of the problem when you encourage a highly competitive environment by offering exclusive prizes. You tend to run over the casual players and keep them from coming back. The problem is, you might miss out on cool ships like the Stargazer, or characters like Barkley by not going to OPs.

In X-Wing, you miss out on cosmetic stuff. You're never losing out on a fan-favorite character by not going to an X-Wing OP.

Anyways, these were just a few reasons people I know gave me when they stopped showing up.
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