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The Hunters: German U-Boats at War, 1939-43» Forums » Variants

Subject: Sub vs. Sub in The Hunted rss

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Gregory Smith
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Hey all,
Here's the rules for sub vs. sub...it's basically taken from the upcoming Silent Victory (and good news! that's gone to print.)

4.2.9 Special procedure for encounters with enemy submarines.
It is possible to roll for an encounter with an enemy submarine as a random event. (this happened a bit more frequently in the second half of the war.) Enemy submarines operated alone, but can act as their own escort of sorts. The first step is to roll 1d10 for the enemy sub: (Although mainly for historical flavor, the tonnage does vary a bit) :
1. HMS Salmon 600t
2. HMS Cachalot 1800t
3. HMS Truculent 1100t
4. HMS Sickle 600t
5. HMS Sahib 600t
6. HMS Unbeaten 500t
7. HMS Tapir 1100t
8. HMS Saracen 600t
9. HMS Venturer 500t
0. HMS Tuna 1100t
4.2.9.1 The enemy submarine may possibly attack first. Roll 1d10. On a roll of 1-3, the U-boat has the initiative, and may either attack or avoid contact. On a roll of "4-0" the British submarine has detected you and attacks first, skip directly to the portion of 4.2.9.5 in which the enemy submarine fires four torpedoes at your U-boat. This is from medium range. The player then rolls for an additional round of combat or disengages per 4.2.9.2. After this "surprise attack" by the enemy sub, the U-boat gets to fire first per 4.2.9.5 in any subsequent rounds of combat. Notice the range will be medium in this case.
4.2.9.3 Sometimes the U-boat will attack first. To attack an enemy submarine, the player goes through the normal procedure of deciding to attack from medium/long, or risks a detection roll by going to close range. You may not attack enemy submarines with your deck gun. Notice an enemy sub is harder to hit, as it receives the "+1" warship modifier when you try to hit it with torpedoes. If you are detected while attempting to get to close range, your attack will be aborted and the enemy sub attacks you first instead from close range.
4.2.9.4 If the player sinks the enemy sub in the first round of combat, the encounter ends with no further action required. Only ONE point of damage is required, so any non-dud hit sinks the sub.
4.2.9.5 If the player misses the enemy sub, the enemy sub rolls for detection using appropriate modifiers. If detection occurs, it fires four torpedoes at the U-boat, hitting on a 2-4 at close, 2-3 at medium, or 2 at long range (2d6). Enemy submarines have duds on a roll of "1". Any non-dud torpedo hit by an enemy sub will sink a player's sub. At this point, assuming the enemy sub has not sunk the player's sub, the player has the option of rolling for an additional round of combat, or to disengage. If he disengages the turn is ended and he moves to the next travel box. If he opts for an additional round of combat, he reloads, rolls for encounters, with an aircraft or escort result meaning the enemy sub gets away (and he has to deal with the new problem). If no aircraft or escort arrives, he then starts a new round of combat against the enemy sub from scratch.




Now, this requires a change to the Random Events chart, which is here: (conveniently enough, I had to change this to up the chance of a minefield hit anyway.)

Roll Event
2 Man Overboard! Huge wave hits the bridge, and watch officer is lost at sea. Roll additional 1d6, 1 = Captain, 2 = LI, 3-4 = 1WO, 5-6 = 2WO
3 Caught Unawares! Aircraft attacks out of the sun, go straight to chart B4 and roll for an attack, including the mandatory 1 x crew injury.
4 Gyro Compass Failure. The gyro compass fails, repair on a roll of 1-2 (and adjust for experte LI if needed). If the repair roll fails, the boat must immediately abort.
5 Superior Torpedoes. The boat has loaded a superior batch of torpedoes for once. Dud rolls are modified by a +1 for the rest of the patrol.
6 British Submarine Encounter. The boat meets a British sub. Roll 1d10 to see who can attack first, 1- 3 German, 4-0 British. Resolve this encounter with the sub vs. sub rules.
7 "Hals und Beinbruch" Literally meaning "neck and leg break," this is slang for "good luck." The player may reroll any one die or dice roll. The good luck can carry forward to the next patrol, and more than one may be accumulated.
8 SNORCHEL Malfunction. The snort sickens the crew with Carbon Monoxide poisoning due to faulty servicing. Lose this travel box while recuperating. If the boat has no schnorchel yet, ignore this event and move to the next travel box.
9 Weather Reporting Duty. Your boat has been assigned to weather reporting duties. This travel box and the next are spent travelling to the reporting station and sending reports, with no encounters rolled for in these two travel boxes. If this event occurs during transit back to base, ignore the event and continue to the next travel box.
10 Minefield. The Boat enters a minefield. Sunk on a 2d6 2-4, take 10 hits on a 5. Drm of -1 for Veteran Crew or -2 for Elite Crew. Spend this travel box making repairs (unless sunk.)
11 Severe Storm. A wicked storm prevents all combat operations and forces the boat to "ride it out." No encounters occur this travel box and the next.
12 Torpedo breaks loose. A torpedo breaks loose from restraints during servicing. Place a SW counter on a yet-uninjured generic crew box (or least injured, if all crew currently injured.)


These rules will be posted up as version 1.6 after comments/changes. Comments anyone?

Greg
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James Moore
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Very nice! One suggestion, how about some kind of dice roll if your boat is sunk by the British sub? This would just be to determine whether you are taken prisoner or the boat is lost with all hands.

Also, will the minefield be dependent on what patrol area you are in? If in say, the Atlantic, would that mean the encounter roll is void? Unless you are in the Bay of Biscay transit box, as mines were one of the risks involved with that location.
 
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Jeff Jones
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Looks great! Some people will want to restrict where an encounter with a British sub might occur (like not in the Caribbean, etc.) and that would be an easy tweak.

Shouldn't the minefield drm be +1 and +2 for Veteran/Elite?

edit: ninja on the drm
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James Moore
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untitledFolder wrote:
Looks great! Some people will want to restrict where an encounter with a British sub might occur (like not in the Caribbean, etc.) and that would be an easy tweak.

Shouldn't the minefield drm be +1 and +2 for Veteran/Elite?

edit: ninja on the drm

Agreed on locations. Possibly sub encounters only in British Isles, Arctic, Norway or Med locations? And also in the Bay of Biscay for other areas..
 
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Jeff Jones
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It all boils to how detailed, and therefore longer, you want the game to be. So maybe limiting locations where British subs could be encountered would be an optional or fan add-on kind of thing. And minefields maybe only encountered in transit boxes (to and from base).
 
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James Moore
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I would say definitely no British subs in North American or Caribbean waters. That would be extremely unrealistic. Atlantic patrols could be a slim possibility. Maybe make a sub attack possible in transit boxes for all patrol areas..
 
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Gregory Smith
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untitledFolder wrote:
Looks great! Some people will want to restrict where an encounter with a British sub might occur (like not in the Caribbean, etc.) and that would be an easy tweak.

Shouldn't the minefield drm be +1 and +2 for Veteran/Elite?

edit: ninja on the drm

Heya,

Nice catch, yeah I got that backwards. That is what happens when I go too fast Fixed, thanks.

Greg
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Gregory Smith
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Heya,

Easy to add a note to the random event to ignore sub vs. sub in North America/Caribbean. Good idea there.

RE: Minefields, same thing, except I think would only add the Atlantic to that list. One could imagine that hitting one somewhere might include on the very edge of the area when passing close to the British Isles or wherever.

Greg

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Alexey Borodkin
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Good!

I'll update Random Events Charts ASAP.
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Gregory Smith
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Hey Alexey,

here's the fixed chart with restrictions:

Roll Event
2 Man Overboard! Huge wave hits the bridge, and watch officer is lost at sea. Roll additional 1d6, 1 = Captain, 2 = LI, 3-4 = 1WO, 5-6 = 2WO
3 Caught Unawares! Aircraft attacks out of the sun, go straight to chart B4 and roll for an attack, including the mandatory 1 x crew injury.
4 Gyro Compass Failure. The gyro compass fails, repair on a roll of 1-2 (and adjust for experte LI if needed). If the repair roll fails, the boat must immediately abort.
5 Superior Torpedoes. The boat has loaded a superior batch of torpedoes for once. Dud rolls are modified by a +1 for the rest of the patrol.
6 British Submarine Encounter. The boat meets a British sub. Roll 1d10 to see who can attack first, 1- 3 German, 4-0 British. Resolve this encounter with the sub vs. sub rules. Ignore this event if it occurs in North America or the Caribbean.
7 "Hals und Beinbruch" Literally meaning "neck and leg break," this is slang for "good luck." The player may reroll any one die or dice roll. The good luck can carry forward to the next patrol, and more than one may be accumulated.
8 SNORCHEL Malfunction. The snort sickens the crew with Carbon Monoxide poisoning due to faulty servicing. Lose this travel box while recuperating. If the boat has no schnorchel yet, ignore this event and move to the next travel box.
9 Weather Reporting Duty. Your boat has been assigned to weather reporting duties. This travel box and the next are spent travelling to the reporting station and sending reports, with no encounters rolled for in these two travel boxes. If this event occurs during transit back to base, ignore the event and continue to the next travel box.
10 Minefield. The Boat enters a minefield. Sunk on a 2d6 2-4, take 10 hits on a 5. Drm of +1 for Veteran Crew or +2 for Elite Crew. Spend this travel box making repairs (unless sunk.) Ignore this event in the Atlantic, North America, or the Caribbean.
11 Severe Storm. A wicked storm prevents all combat operations and forces the boat to "ride it out." No encounters occur this travel box and the next.
12 Torpedo breaks loose. A torpedo breaks loose from restraints during servicing. Place a SW counter on a yet-uninjured generic crew box (or least injured, if all crew currently injured.)
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Alexey Borodkin
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Got it, Greg! Thanks!

Sturmer wrote:
Ignore this event if it occurs in North America or the Caribbean.

Just curious: what's about Med? Was sub vs sub encounter possible there from historical point of view?
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Jeff Jones
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I think the Med was one of the more active locations for British subs. I wonder about other locations like Indian Ocean or African coast. But I'm not really well read on it.
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James Moore
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untitledFolder wrote:
I think the Med was one of the more active locations for British subs. I wonder about other locations like Indian Ocean or African coast. But I'm not really well read on it.

The Med was probably the most active theater for British subs. Quite a bit of sub vs sub there. Several U-boats, Italian subs, and at least one British sub lost there in sub encounters. Heavy losses there for the British boats, but mostly from mines and Italian ASW efforts..
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John Kranz
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Greg may correct me if I'm wrong here (it's been a while since we've been focused on Silent Victory: U.S. Submarines in the Pacific, 1941-45 for the past months), but we are planning to cover The Med with a separate game treatment. At least I recall there was definitely enough going on here to warrant a dedicated game treatment.
 
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Gregory Smith
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Hey John,

Well, depends on how you define "covering the Med." James is just pointing out there was a lot of Sub vs. sub in the Med. This is covered in "The Hunted". Obviously the Med is currently in both Hunted and Hunters, but not as the main focus.


However, YES, I have about 50% completed a game on the Med, using the Hunters system, which basically covers the Italian boats - mainly on their Med actions, to include 2-man torpedo operations, but also covering the BETASOM operations in the Bay of Biscay.

So yes....it's in the works.

Greg
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John Kranz
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Bingo...yes, that's what I meant, Greg.
 
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Nigel Hodge
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Thanks for this Greg. I'll try it out on my next patrol in my trusty (& increasingly rusty) Type VII.
Most encounters between U boats and British submarines ended up with torpedoes missing their targets, but when a submarine was sunk it was usually the German one. A good read on this subject is "Submarines Versus U Boats" by Geoffrey P. Jones.
 
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Gregory Smith
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consimworld wrote:
Bingo...yes, that's what I meant, Greg.

Hey John,

Upon rereading my post, I realized it sounded kind of snotty. Believe me, nothing like that was intended. Just trying to clarify.

I'll make it up to you by making the Med game a good one

Greg
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Gregory Smith
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Forensicman wrote:
Thanks for this Greg. I'll try it out on my next patrol in my trusty (& increasingly rusty) Type VII.
Most encounters between U boats and British submarines ended up with torpedoes missing their targets, but when a submarine was sunk it was usually the German one. A good read on this subject is "Submarines Versus U Boats" by Geoffrey P. Jones.

Heya,

No problem, I think it definitely needed to be included in "The Hunted." The hit probabilities I think reflect the situation - but as if the Hunted wasn't scary enough, sub vs. sub just adds another piece of tension, hehehe.

If you ask me, it would take a real set of cast iron cajones if you happen to get the drop on the British sub....and decide to attack it. I think without question the prudent move would be to slink off! Would be fun though.

I may have to take out a Type VII myself...I've been running mostly Type IXs and the replenishment boats (to test those rules.) I have yet to experience the "anti-invasion" rule yet either...so far I've been in drydock when it's happened. Kind of like missing out on Norway in Hunters...

Later,
Greg

PS, your British mod is pretty cool
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James Moore
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Sturmer wrote:
Forensicman wrote:
Thanks for this Greg. I'll try it out on my next patrol in my trusty (& increasingly rusty) Type VII.
Most encounters between U boats and British submarines ended up with torpedoes missing their targets, but when a submarine was sunk it was usually the German one. A good read on this subject is "Submarines Versus U Boats" by Geoffrey P. Jones.

Heya,

No problem, I think it definitely needed to be included in "The Hunted." The hit probabilities I think reflect the situation - but as if the Hunted wasn't scary enough, sub vs. sub just adds another piece of tension, hehehe.

If you ask me, it would take a real set of cast iron cajones if you happen to get the drop on the British sub....and decide to attack it. I think without question the prudent move would be to slink off! Would be fun though.


It did happen. The British sub P615 was sunk 18 April 43 off the West African coast, by U-123. I believe this was the only time a Type IX sank an enemy sub.

Btw, I just completed a tour of duty in the Type I from Nigel's Early U-boats. Whooeee what a roller coaster ride that was, especially the last two patrols (film at 11)! If you survive in one of those until Dec 1940 you get a new boat.
Damage from the Type I's last patrol kept me in refit through Dec '40. The Type IXB U-111 commissioned that same month, so fate will send me back out to sea in the 111. Will see if my luck continues to hold..

 
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Sturmer wrote:
The first step is to roll 1d10 for the enemy sub: (Although mainly for historical flavor, the tonnage does vary a bit) :
1. HMS Salmon 600t
2. HMS Cachalot 1800t
3. HMS Truculent 1100t
4. HMS Sickle 600t
5. HMS Sahib 600t
6. HMS Unbeaten 500t
7. HMS Tapir 1100t
8. HMS Saracen 600t
9. HMS Venturer 500t
0. HMS Tuna 1100t

Could any of the submarines actually put names to their undersea adversaries?
 
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Nigel Hodge
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xgamerms999 wrote:
Sturmer wrote:
The first step is to roll 1d10 for the enemy sub: (Although mainly for historical flavor, the tonnage does vary a bit) :
1. HMS Salmon 600t
2. HMS Cachalot 1800t
3. HMS Truculent 1100t
4. HMS Sickle 600t
5. HMS Sahib 600t
6. HMS Unbeaten 500t
7. HMS Tapir 1100t
8. HMS Saracen 600t
9. HMS Venturer 500t
0. HMS Tuna 1100t

Could any of the submarines actually put names to their undersea adversaries?
Sometimes... if there was a survivor, if there was any informative wreckage or if intel' sources were able to determine what enemy sub had gone missing in the area. The British and USN were better at the latter than the Axis as we had pretty much cracked their codes.
 
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James Moore
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xgamerms999 wrote:
Sturmer wrote:
The first step is to roll 1d10 for the enemy sub: (Although mainly for historical flavor, the tonnage does vary a bit) :
1. HMS Salmon 600t
2. HMS Cachalot 1800t
3. HMS Truculent 1100t
4. HMS Sickle 600t
5. HMS Sahib 600t
6. HMS Unbeaten 500t
7. HMS Tapir 1100t
8. HMS Saracen 600t
9. HMS Venturer 500t
0. HMS Tuna 1100t

Could any of the submarines actually put names to their undersea adversaries?

1. Salmon vs U-36 4 Dec 39
2. Cachalot vs U-51 28 Aug 40
3. Truculent vs U-308 4 Jun 43
4. Sickle vs U-303 21 May 43
5. Sahib vs U-301 21 Jan 43
6. Unbeaten vs U-376 12 Jan 42
7. Tapir vs U-486 12 Apr 45
8. Saracen vs U-335 3 Aug 43
9. Venturer vs U-771 11 Nov 44 and U-864 9 Feb 45
0. Tuna vs U-644 7 Apr 45

 
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Max
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What I meant was, they couldn't tell what they were fighting till after the fact, it just feels weird to me to be rolling up a blip on the sonar. Perhaps I'll run through the encounter, then roll up the info if I need to.
 
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James Moore
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xgamerms999 wrote:
What I meant was, they couldn't tell what they were fighting till after the fact, it just feels weird to me to be rolling up a blip on the sonar. Perhaps I'll run through the encounter, then roll up the info if I need to.

From what I've read, they pretty much knew they were up against an enemy sub. The Brits called all enemy subs "U-Boats". It is unlikely that very many of the U-boats were identified to the crews, except for when they picked up survivors.
Bletchley Park likely knew the IDs of many of them, but would have kept this a secret.
Most of the identifications were likely made postwar with access to captured German records, and eventual declassification of Allied files..

Edit: You could possibly just have the U-boat be a generic target. For example: "500 ton U-boat" and etc..
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