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Subject: Interesting finding about Yellow Sign (maybe I was the only one doing the mistake) rss

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Pierre Lanrezac
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I'm currently translating Cthulhu Wars in french and I've just found out something in two Yellow Sign' Spellbooks I haven't noticed before.
The way Screaming Dead and The One Who Must Not Be Named are written, the second Action YS have after using either of them is not optional: YS must take a second Action meaning that he cannot use either of them when down to one PP.

The strategic impact is important: Yellow Sign will spend, on average, its power faster (finally meaning that catching up the King is not that hard, even without 6 Spellbooks and unlimited battle).

Today is a good day
 
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Frédéric G.
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You could always quit and take a portal for 0.
So no real change for me !!
 
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Ken Mortis
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Of course that interpretation goes against this answer from Sandy when he was asked about this.
Sandy Petersen wrote:
You are not required to take a second action after He Who Is Not To Be Named nor Screaming Dead.


ETA: linky. http://boardgamegeek.com/article/18917330#18917330
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Bernard Gourion
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Kmortis wrote:
Of course that interpretation goes against this answer from Sandy when he was asked about this.
Sandy Petersen wrote:
You are not required to take a second action after He Who Is Not To Be Named nor Screaming Dead.


ETA: linky. http://boardgamegeek.com/article/18917330#18917330

That deserves a final and clear official settlement
 
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Eric Nolan
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Interesting but in my games YS almost always follows these up with an attack anyway. I can't remember a single instance where the player didn't want to take their extra action to preserve their power.

Thanks to this I'll know the answer whenever someone does try this though.
 
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Pierre Lanrezac
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Yes I know Sandy's ruling, I'm just talking about the way the spellbook is written.
For gameplay balance, I think I'll enforce it in my games.
 
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Ken Mortis
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I dunno, the English version is quite clear that the second action is optional.

Quote:
The Screaming Dead (Action: Cost 1):
Move the King in Yellow and any Undead in the same area to a neighboring area, you may immediately perform a second, different action (may not perform He Who Must Not Be Named as the second action).


He who must not be named is similarly written
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James
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Pitpipo wrote:
Yes I know Sandy's ruling, I'm just talking about the way the spellbook is written.
For gameplay balance, I think I'll enforce it in my games.

...but Pit, wouldn't you want to trust Sandy on the matter of gameplay balance considering all the playtesting they did? Do we need to keep an eye on you so that you don't go "go rogue" with the translations in the French version?

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Brian M
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Kmortis wrote:
I dunno, the English version is quite clear that the second action is optional.

Quote:
The Screaming Dead (Action: Cost 1):
Move the King in Yellow and any Undead in the same area to a neighboring area, you may immediately perform a second, different action (may not perform He Who Must Not Be Named as the second action).


He who must not be named is similarly written


Pretty sure my English version is quite clear that the second action is NOT optional. Though I do know they have said that this had been errated.

I definitely prefer it with the second action mandatory; YS is strong enough as is.
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Arthur Petersen
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If you want to be REALLY persnickety about the rules as related to the text of these spellbooks:

It says "...immediately take a second, different, Action..."

Let's assume that means it is not optional.

However, I suppose you could just take the Unlimited Action of abandoning a gate (and then immediately also regaining that gate!). And if that's legal, then in practice you don't really have to do a second Action (unless you control 0 gates at the moment).

One could argue that "Action" doesn't mean "Unlimited Action" and then yes, you have to do a real one.

This sounds like a job for Rule Omega.
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Kolby Reddish
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existoid wrote:
If you want to be REALLY persnickety about the rules as related to the text of these spellbooks:

It says "...immediately take a second, different, Action..."

Let's assume that means it is not optional.

However, I suppose you could just take the Unlimited Action of abandoning a gate (and then immediately also regaining that gate!). And if that's legal, then in practice you don't really have to do a second Action (unless you control 0 gates at the moment).

One could argue that "Action" doesn't mean "Unlimited Action" and then yes, you have to do a real one.

This sounds like a job for Rule Omega.


Sorry Arthur, but I think this needs a real answer - not just "Rule Omega."

Whether or not the action is optional is a huge balance question - not some corner case. YS will be using Screaming Dead for a lot of actions throughout the game (in every game I've ever seen him played well). Requiring him to perform a second real action really changes the spell book to a degree that I don't think is appropriate to decide with a die roll. IMO Rule Omega shouldn't exist - but if it's going to, leave it for interactions between spell books when things get complicated. This is a simple question (and one that Sandy has already answered) about the wording of a spell book. Players shouldn't have to decide this from game to game.

Keep in mind, I love the game - but I will forever be grumpy towards Rule Omega - because it's not a real solution. But I love you Arthur. In a bromance kind of way. I'm just shooting the messenger.
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Pierre Lanrezac
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Brother Jim wrote:

...but Pit, wouldn't you want to trust Sandy on the matter of gameplay balance considering all the playtesting they did? Do we need to keep an eye on you so that you don't go "go rogue" with the translations in the French version?


Jim, you know how honest I am; I've translated exactly the terms written on the card You must have mistaken me for Adam !
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Ken Mortis
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reddish22 wrote:
existoid wrote:
If you want to be REALLY persnickety about the rules as related to the text of these spellbooks:

It says "...immediately take a second, different, Action..."

Let's assume that means it is not optional.

However, I suppose you could just take the Unlimited Action of abandoning a gate (and then immediately also regaining that gate!). And if that's legal, then in practice you don't really have to do a second Action (unless you control 0 gates at the moment).

One could argue that "Action" doesn't mean "Unlimited Action" and then yes, you have to do a real one.

This sounds like a job for Rule Omega.


Sorry Arthur, but I think this needs a real answer - not just "Rule Omega."

Whether or not the action is optional is a huge balance question - not some corner case. YS will be using Screaming Dead for a lot of actions throughout the game (in every game I've ever seen him played well). Requiring him to perform a second real action really changes the spell book to a degree that I don't think is appropriate to decide with a die roll. IMO Rule Omega shouldn't exist - but if it's going to, leave it for interactions between spell books when things get complicated. This is a simple question (and one that Sandy has already answered) about the wording of a spell book. Players shouldn't have to decide this from game to game.

Keep in mind, I love the game - but I will forever be grumpy towards Rule Omega - because it's not a real solution. But I love you Arthur. In a bromance kind of way. I'm just shooting the messenger.

I have to agree with reddish here. I play YS a lot and Screaming Dead is an important weapon in my arsenal. To have two different version depending on what language version you're playing seems silly to me. Especially in light of Sandy's pre-existing ruling.

I'm willing to concede that the text I quoted wasn't the exact text off the chit (my copy is at home, so I used the compendium on Google Drive) but my recollection is that it's not as ambiguous as all that.
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Joey Larsen
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I have to admit, the word 'may' does not seem vague to me. May means something that you don't have to do. It is also a month.
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Adam Starks
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The compendium may have been updated to reflect Sandy's comments that the 2nd action is optional, but the Spellbook as written indicates that the 2nd action is mandatory.

Similarly to how Passion as written currently implies that removing your High Priest triggers it (even though I know that's not the rule), this is something that should be corrected if there's ever a 2nd print run of the core game.
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Nick R. Nielsen-Doss
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AdamStarks wrote:
The compendium may have been updated to reflect Sandy's comments that the 2nd action is optional, but the Spellbook as written indicates that the 2nd action is mandatory.

Similarly to how Passion as written currently implies that removing your High Priest triggers it (even though I know that's not the rule), this is something that should be corrected if there's ever a 2nd print run of the core game.


For my sake, where is this compendium located? Is this official or fan made?
 
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Bernard Gourion
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the compendium is fan-made and Sandy settled this as the secnd action being optipnal, i always played and make people to play it optional and that is strategically important
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Kolby Reddish
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joeyman3 wrote:
I have to admit, the word 'may' does not seem vague to me. May means something that you don't have to do. It is also a month.


I don't think anyone is arguing that. The issue that Pit raised is that the spell book doesn't say "May." It's unambiguously different from the ruling we have now.
 
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Ken B.
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reddish22 wrote:
joeyman3 wrote:
I have to admit, the word 'may' does not seem vague to me. May means something that you don't have to do. It is also a month.


I don't think anyone is arguing that. The issue that Pit raised is that the spell book doesn't say "May." It's unambiguously different from the ruling we have now.



Designer's rule takes precedence over printed, yeah?
 
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Nick R. Nielsen-Doss
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franklincobb wrote:
reddish22 wrote:
joeyman3 wrote:
I have to admit, the word 'may' does not seem vague to me. May means something that you don't have to do. It is also a month.


I don't think anyone is arguing that. The issue that Pit raised is that the spell book doesn't say "May." It's unambiguously different from the ruling we have now.



Designer's rule takes precedence over printed, yeah?


I have no problem with that, as long as there is ONE spot to look for errata.
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Kolby Reddish
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franklincobb wrote:
reddish22 wrote:
joeyman3 wrote:
I have to admit, the word 'may' does not seem vague to me. May means something that you don't have to do. It is also a month.


I don't think anyone is arguing that. The issue that Pit raised is that the spell book doesn't say "May." It's unambiguously different from the ruling we have now.



Designer's rule takes precedence over printed, yeah?


Yeah. This is basically an errata. I'm just emphasizing that it's not as clear for those who didn't know Sandy had changed it. The spell book doesn't reflect that change (yet).
 
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Daniel U. Thibault
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Kmortis wrote:

Quote:
The Screaming Dead (Action: Cost 1):
Move the King in Yellow and any Undead in the same area to a neighboring area, you may immediately perform a second, different action (may not perform He Who Must Not Be Named as the second action).



The actual spell book reads:
Quote:
The Screaming Dead (Action: Cost 1):
Move the King in Yellow. Any Undead in the same Area can move with him for free. After this, immediately take a second, different, Action. You may not take He Who is Not to be Named as your second Action.


So yeah, the second Action is mandatory. (If short of Power, then just move off and on a gate, as stated earlier)


Quote:
He Who is Not to be Named (Action: Cost 1):
Move Hastur to any area containing a Cultist of any Faction (the Cultist said his name, possibly by accident). After this, immediately take a second, different, Action. You may NOT take The Screaming Dead as your second action.


(Note the slight inconsistencies in capitalization of Action and in emphasis of the "not")
 
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Adam Starks
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Urhixidur wrote:
The actual spell book reads:
Quote:
The Screaming Dead (Action: Cost 1):
Move the King in Yellow. Any Undead in the same Area can move with him for free. After this, immediately take a second, different, Action. You may not take He Who is Not to be Named as your second Action.


So yeah, the second Action is mandatory. (If short of Power, then just move off and on a gate, as stated earlier)

Just to preempt any confusion, the text of the Spellbook implies that the 2nd Action is mandatory, but that's not actually the rule. The official rule is that the 2nd Action is optional.
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Pierre Lanrezac
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AdamStarks wrote:
The official rule is that the 2nd Action is optional.


But it is not written in an official rulebook or FAQ ^^
 
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Arthur Petersen
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For the record, Rule Omega is awesome, and Reddish doesn't know what he's talking about

Anyway, Sandy has been known to forget his own rulings, and therefore even rule slightly differently from time to time.

This may ( whistle ) be an instance of that. When did he rule (on BGG) that you do not have to take the second action?

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