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Subject: my criticism of the WBC/BPA rss

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Doug Faust
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You're double-counting some of the Lancaster Host's space. "Grand Ballroom", listed at 9288, is a combination of Ballrooms A and B. Heritage Room, listed at 2244, is a combination of Heritage A and B.
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J. R. Tracy
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I think you're double counting the Grand Ballroom (Ballrooms A & B combined), the Conestogas (included in Lampeter), and the Heritage Room (Heritage A & B combined) - that's over 14,000 sq ft, which drops the Host's space down to roughly Seven Springs' level.
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Nick Avtges
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I'd also argue that the Showroom, listed at 13,000 sq. ft. has much less usable space for gaming than it would if it wasn't terraced.
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Marco DeLaurentis
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I would like to make a counter arguement to your post. Please note that I am not approving or dissaproving Seven Springs. WBC has yet to actually be there, and I will not judge the location until they have.

The issue with the host is more than just "It doesn't look pretty".Two of the biggest issues with the Host is health and dealing with the disabled. Two points that are more than just asthetics.

There are serious mold and mildew issue and leaks. This is a health hazard. And if people with disabilities have trouble getting around, you are limiting your clintele and are excluding and discriminating against a whole segment of people. Both of which are things that need to be delt with.

The host appaerently doesn't want ot deal with this, due to the fact that each year things get worse and worse.
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Andrew E
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Funny "thing" about that. Everybody I "talked" with about "this" during the "convention" was somewhere "between" happy and neutral about the move. Granted I wasn't "taking" a poll, but I probably heard 20-some "opinions" about it. There's not much "left" to do except "go", or not. If it's a "disaster", we'll "deal" with it then.

The website is certainly not as sleek or updated as much it could be. Are you volunteering? Personally, I'd like their website to be updated with results, including team tournament and estimated Caesar standings in real time as results come in over the week, but I'm not going to complain that it's not until I find myself with the inclination to do it, plus a couple hundred hours, and they turn me down. Until then I'll continue to happily navigate their website primarily via control-f.
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Kurt R
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Severus wrote:
nix342 wrote:
I'd also argue that the Showroom, listed at 13,000 sq. ft. has much less usable space for gaming than it would if it wasn't terraced.
I disliked the open gaming Showroom. During main hours, it seemed every single table was ALWAYS being actively used, with more people waiting.
Yes, not a true use of 13,000 sq. ft. And it's a lousy room for gaming IMO. The round tables frequently required leaning over to see the board by some players, lighting was spotty at best (ugh, the lighting!), and I never cared for the dark, window-less walls. The stairs were obviously a problem for people with disabilities. I was sorry to see open gaming under the tent by the pool go away.

I won't miss that room at all.
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J. R. Tracy
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enzo622 wrote:

I won't miss that room at all.

It had two virtues - it was easy to spot people on the lower tiers, and outlets were close to every table. I will happily trade that for a more efficient space with decent lighting.
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Michael Kiefte
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Severus wrote:
Oh I agree the Host was a dump. But is Seven Springs really the best available alternative? I wonder whether something with more space and/or nearer to a major airport is available.

Funny thing: Don mentioned that one of the bids to host WBC pulled out because of the tone of online comments from the community. So, apparently, there were fewer bids than we could have had.
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Marty Sample
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Severus wrote:
Marcodel wrote:
I would like to make a counter arguement to your post. Please note that I am not approving or dissaproving Seven Springs. WBC has yet to actually be there, and I will not judge the location until they have.

The issue with the host is more than just "It doesn't look pretty".Two of the biggest issues with the Host is health and dealing with the disabled. Two points that are more than just asthetics.

There are serious mold and mildew issue and leaks. This is a health hazard. And if people with disabilities have trouble getting around, you are limiting your clintele and are excluding and discriminating against a whole segment of people. Both of which are things that need to be delt with.

The host appaerently doesn't want ot deal with this, due to the fact that each year things get worse and worse.
Oh I agree the Host was a dump. But is Seven Springs really the best available alternative? I wonder whether something with more space and/or nearer to a major airport is available.

Closer to an airport ? Sure, those places exist...for a LOT more money. I asked Don about something near Philly/DC/Baltimore. Room rates would start around $200 a night and parking would likely be extra. Those prices are a show stopper for way too many people .
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John Maddening
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That does seem very strange -- moving to a new venue over three hours away, on the other side of the state?
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Kevin C.
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Quote:
I wonder whether something with more space and/or nearer to a major airport is available.

This is like a time warp.

Did you go to the briefings at last year's convention where Don addressed these issues?

He also posted here and on Consimworld about two weeks after the convention to address them.

You can do the searches yourself, but it pretty much boiled down to Seven Springs being the best bang for the BPA buck.

Sure, there was something with more space by a major airport. NYC and Philly had spots that would have been great, but the price per person would have made our heads explode.

That is the main issue for us. We need a ton of space for 2,000 people and locales that are in major metropolitan areas cost a ton.

So, Seven Springs was a compromise. Don said numerous times that the issue was money and not just about some "perfect site."

So, yes, you can probably find some other site that you consider "better", but then the price (or some other factor) puts it out of the running. (For example, Don mentioned the Convention Center in downtown Lancaster was ruled out because of parking.)

Yes, people will be angry about extra travel time, but the hope is that people give it a shot and judge for themselves whether the WBC still fits their gaming needs.

As I say, though, this was a post-convention row last year. You can read all about it if you do some searches.

EDIT: Oh, the CD is for "Convention Director." He is the guy that tries to do his best to give us a cool week of rolling dice and playing cards and takes a whole lot of crap for his efforts.

Kevin
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J. R. Tracy
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Why is it pointless? People are answering your questions and clarifying some issues.
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Marco DeLaurentis
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Severus wrote:
Marcodel wrote:
I would like to make a counter arguement to your post. Please note that I am not approving or dissaproving Seven Springs. WBC has yet to actually be there, and I will not judge the location until they have.

The issue with the host is more than just "It doesn't look pretty".Two of the biggest issues with the Host is health and dealing with the disabled. Two points that are more than just asthetics.

There are serious mold and mildew issue and leaks. This is a health hazard. And if people with disabilities have trouble getting around, you are limiting your clintele and are excluding and discriminating against a whole segment of people. Both of which are things that need to be delt with.

The host appaerently doesn't want ot deal with this, due to the fact that each year things get worse and worse.
Oh I agree the Host was a dump. But is Seven Springs really the best available alternative? I wonder whether something with more space and/or nearer to a major airport is available.

I can't tell you that. Apperently, from WBC's description, they considered many options. I was not part of those meeting personally so I can not say one way or another on the topic of where they moved to, other than that it needed to be done with the constantly worsening condition of the hotel.
 
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Kevin C.
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Quote:
And it would have been helpful to see that BGG and Consimworld discussion you mentioned on boardgamers.org

It also would have been helpful if you initial tone was a bit less confrontational.

Coming out of the box ripping Don and the BPA isn't a great way to get information, if that was your intent.

First off, it isn't Don's fault he doesn't have information to give you. I believe GM's get a certain amount of time to do their after action reports. Don makes his summary from those reports, I believe.

I guess there was never a strong need for live tournament results. The winners are posted in the after action reports and perhaps, this has always been enough.

What it would take, I don't know. I don't GM, but I often see them tabulating results at all hours and times, so they work hard as volunteers. I don't know if this would be an extra burden or not for the few people that would make use of it. A GM could better speak to it.

It's just that your main points have already been addressed numerous times. You may not have known that going into this thread, but it seems presumptuous to think a move like this was made without deliberation and contemplation. (Your comments about the space and forests seem to be implying this.)

There are many people that don't like the decision for personal reasons and this is understandable. I've got to drive an extra 3 hours and stay off-site now. I'm not happy, but the WBC has become an important week for me and my son and we will keep going because we don't want to give it up.

Unlike others, however, I trust that Don and the Board made the best decision they could given the circumstances. They didn't make the decision wili-nily or with the desire to destroy the BPA. They obviously feel this is a positive move for us and I trust them since I only go to play games while they have a serious obligation to the membership.

They may not have made a great decision for me personally, but I'm not that important. It's the entire membership that needs to be considered and the belief is enough of us will go and some new people will come aboard. The WBC will continue to be an awesome week of gaming for a few thousand of us.

If the Board is wrong, then we will deal with it. I just don't think there is enough real evidence to reach that conclusion right now.

"The move sucks for me" is quite different than "The board screwed up and the WBC is doomed."

I think many people are conflating the two.

Kevin
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John Reiners
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The host was truly a crappy place. It had its charms since we can all reminisce about the crappy amenities and make jokes about it. But they were never fixed.
Same run down rugs in the hallways. Same crappy internet access in the rooms.
Same sign on one of the rooms that was supposed to say "Flight Club" but instead said "Fight club" (and that's what we used it for but don't talk about fight club).
I cant imagine the new place, while further away would be worse. I haven't been the WBC the last few years, but I do want to go next time just to check out the new digs.
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David Bohnenberger
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Severus wrote:

Oh I agree the Host was a dump. But is Seven Springs really the best available alternative? I wonder whether something with more space and/or nearer to a major airport is available.

You, like many others, seem to believe that the BPA board did not perform a thorough search. Please see this thread, I am being helpful and starting you off on page 10

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1214191/its-been-decide...
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Marco DeLaurentis
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jrtracy wrote:
Why is it pointless? People are answering your questions and clarifying some issues.

I think it's pointless because people aren't out right agreeing with him.
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Carl
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Actually I'm one of the war/board gamers who love to hike and bike. I'm really excited to have the opportunity to do some of this, especially hiking, during the next WBC at Seven Springs. For me, Seven Springs is also farther away than Lancaster. I would be happy to "lead" a hike for those gamers willing to venture into the woods!
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Nick Avtges
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Severus wrote:
natsean wrote:
Quote:
I wonder whether something with more space and/or nearer to a major airport is available.
Did you go to the briefings at last year's convention where Don addressed these issues?

He also posted here and on Consimworld about two weeks after the convention to address them.
My original post makes clear that I was not at WBC last year. And it would have been helpful to see that BGG and Consimworld discussion you mentioned on boardgamers.org

Admin, please just lock/delete this thread. It's pointless.

It seemed pretty clear to me that this was your goal from the very start. Nice of you to just come right out and say it.
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David Dockter
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Severus wrote:
natsean wrote:
Quote:
I wonder whether something with more space and/or nearer to a major airport is available.
Did you go to the briefings at last year's convention where Don addressed these issues?

He also posted here and on Consimworld about two weeks after the convention to address them.
My original post makes clear that I was not at WBC last year. And it would have been helpful to see that BGG and Consimworld discussion you mentioned on boardgamers.org

Admin, please just lock/delete this thread. It's pointless.

That is a funny exchange; love the last line. Hilarious.

Don, the Board and others searched for locations for a few years (check the CSW WBC board - there are a few thousand messages {I think from around msg 41,000 > 43,000?} where you can follow the discussion) AND continually solicited input (WBC even did a survey - which Greenwood discussed in detail on an episode of Guns, Dice, Butter - to get input).

Regarding the geographic location, I think a decision was made early to stay within the Darren box (still has the highest concentration of wargamers, we think...also, off of the planet earth was viewed as impractical and outside of the USA as likely too expensive - my choice was to move WBC to Budapest, but, sadly, some said it was too far away):



Given that WBC is such an outstanding gaming con, I'm really glad they have now left The Host for a much better location: Good facility, cheap room rates, decent transporation and in the Darren box. Of course that is all relative to the alternatives, but, given that Don and TEAM WBC actually invested the hard work (and have demonstrated for two decades their ability to put on the best gaming con in the universe), I trust their decision.

Big hats to Team WBC and I can't wait until WBC 2016.

In the meantime, I won't hold me breadth until someone comes up with a better location... oh, and then actually negotiates a better deal for the WBC tribe than Mr.Greenwood
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Grant LaDue
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Severus wrote:

Oh I agree the Host was a dump. But is Seven Springs really the best available alternative? I wonder whether something with more space and/or nearer to a major airport is available.

No, no there isn't. That is the simple reality of it.
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Max Jamelli
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Severus wrote:
Pile on much? Well, ok then. I guess I'm just not WBC material anymore.

Really?

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Kevin C.
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Quote:
Pile on much? Well, ok then. I guess I'm just not WBC material anymore.

Of course you are. You are taking this personally when there is no need to.

Quote:
I do not at all miss the smells and personal grooming habits at WBC... sometimes going down the hall I'd be nearly knocked over by the wave of scent that continually surrounds some players going the other way. Not toward a shower, towards their next event. Because schedules > food/sleep/showers.

This is just sour grapes. We smell and don't shower now because we don't agree with your BPA criticism? This seems a bit immature, no?

The WBC is moving and while many of us don't like the move on a personal level, we trust that the board made the best decision it could.

Many of us are willing to give it a shot rather than look for reasons to shoot it down a year ahead of time.

If you choose not to come, then so be it. But it isn't because you aren't "WBC material". I would bet if you did come, you would have a great time playing the games you love with others that share your passion.

Once you made the drive, you would forget all about Don and politics and the Host and just enjoy playing games.

Kevin
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Christopher Yaure
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Scott - when was the last time you attended WBC? The message you received from Don indicates you did not attend this year. Did you attend in 2014? Some of your comments seem somewhat outdated.

Also, WBC 2015 tournament winners lists the winners of 60+ events.
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David Dockter
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