Jessey
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For this contest: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1398349/2015-mint-tin-design...

I originally had not planned to enter, but I found an Altoids Tin and had an idea that I wanted to try -- Tiny Tin Titan!

The idea is inspired by Shadow of the Colossus. It's a 2 player asymmetric game. One player will play as the Tin Titan, and the other as the intrepid adventurer scaling the titan and trying to destroy it by striking its weak points. The actual gameplay will be a kind of hidden movement game, with the adventurer scaling the titan and the titan not knowing precisely where they are.

I'm going to leave this post as a place holder so I can put the final game details/links here. Stay tuned for thoughts and ideas next post!

* * *

Components and rules are ready! It's not in "tin" version yet, but this will be good enough for now (as it is you use the tin as a screen to hide the weak point selection - no magnets needed yet).

Tiny Tin Titan Components

Tiny Tin Titan Rules
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Jessey
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Re: [WIP] Mint Tin Titan - Mint Tin Contest 2015 Entry - Contest Ready
General Idea
It will require some assembly (glue and stickers or tape). On the inside of the tin will be a graphic of the titan (ideally a sticker) and you glue shelves into the tin to represent different spaces on the titan the adventurer can occupy (these will be spaced out so that all the components can fit in around them). One side will represent the front of the titan, the other the back (I think, that's the idea for now anyway).

Then you stand the tin up on its short edge, half open (like a book), and players sit opposite it. The Adventurer will be able to see the interior with the shelves and the titan stickers, and the Titan will see a diagram of the Titan (another sicker that goes on the bottom of the tin). The diagram will help the Titan figure out where the adventurer is.

When the adventurer moves, they have to share partial information about where they are (each shelf will have 2-3 icons on it, and in general, when you move, you have to declare one icon on the shelf that you are on and one icon on the shelf that you are moving to).

Adventurer
The adventurer can:
- Examine (to get information about the weak spots), Grip (prevents getting knocked off if the Titan "Shakes" the space they are on)
- Leap (lets you avoid the Titan "Slam" action, but also requires them to declare two icons of the location they move to. This also lets the adventurer move in directions not normally permitted)
- Climb (move along a regular pathway and provide standard information)
- Strike (attack your location: you give complete information and the Titan declares if you hit a weak spot or not)

Each action will be a mini-card with all the information about how you take that Action on it.

Titan
The Titan will have action cards as well and will play one per turn. Titan Actions I have thought of are:

- Shake (declare two icons, if the adventures location has both and they did not Grip, they fall directly down)

- Slam (declare two icons, if the adventurers location has both and they did not Leap, they are Crushed)

- Sense (adventurer must declare two icons on their current Location)

- Charge (declare one icon on a Weak Spot and set this card aside to show that you have 1 Charge. Charge is spent by returning Charge cards to your hand to activate your special Titan action. If you take Damage from being hit in a Weak Spot, all collected Charge is returned to hand)

- Burst (declare the full icon location of a Weak Spot. If the Adventurer is at that Location they fall directly down)

The Titan will also have a Special Ability that allows them to spend stored Charge. The basic one I am going to design with first grants the Titan a double Action round (which, if the Titan is wise, will probably be a Sense + Slam or Sense + Shake).

The Titan will also have 3 weak spots, randomly determined at the start of the game (each possible space the Adventurer can occupy COULD be a weak spot). Striking a Weak Spot destroys it. If any two Weak Spots are struck, the Adventurer wins. If the Adventurer dies, the Titan wins (Adventurer has 3 Life - a Fall takes 1 Life and a Crush takes 2).

Finally, I'm going to use this cute guy as my Titan graphic: http://opengameart.org/sites/default/files/golem_col.png

And probably this (or some variation of it) for the Adventurer: http://opengameart.org/sites/default/files/old%20sarasprites...
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James Arias
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Love the name!

I feel like it needs to be shouted TINY TIN TITAAAAAAAN!
And then an explosion.
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Jessey
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I'll be the first to admit, the name came first and it was the major drive behind the design (I almost made a gladiator arena game out of it - maybe there's another Tiny Tin game in the wings -- but for now Colossus theme!)

Here's the first stab at the interior sticker. There will be little ledges attached along the black bars (you could always play with it flat on the table too, but that's not as fun as 3D).



I'm actually thinking that the whole hidden movement bit might not be necessary. There could be some really interesting bluffing even if both players can see where the adventurer is on the Titan. Just interactions between effects can create nice weighted rock-paper-scissors scenarios.

Consider:

The Adventurer is on the Titan's leg.

The Titan could play Stomp or Move. Stomp causes a Drop effect on the leg and has the Vault icon. Move has the Move Icon and lets the Titan draw 2 cards.

The Adventurer could play Climb or Leap. Climb has the Grip icon, which makes the player immune to Drop effects but that cancels the movement. Leap has two icons, it shows Vulnerability to the Move Icon and Boost from the Vault icon. If Leap is played and the Move Icon is on the Titan Card, then the Adventurer will fall to the ground. If Leap is played and the Vault icon is on the Titan Card, the Adventurer gets to move 2 spaces.

Basically it could work like this, the Titan cards have icons on them that activate positive or negative effects on the Adventurer cards. Both player cards face down then reveal, so there's constant double-guessing. Pepper in some card management and differential payoffs and there should be enough game without needing hidden movement mechanics (which I always find clunky). It would be more cinematic too, which is the real goal I think.
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James Arias
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I like. Real simple and fast. You could play in a car too!
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Jessey
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Here's a sample Adventurer Card (eventually everything will be icons):



The Titan card would have some icons on it (so the Move card would have the Move Icon and the Stomp card would have the Vault Icon and a Fall effect Icon) and a Main Effect as well.

Both players pick cards and reveal. The Adventurer resolves their card effect (base effect at the top, and then any and all subsequent effects based on the icons on the Titan's card from top to bottom). The Titan then resolves the main effect of their card, if any, as long as the player's card doesn't have a blocking icon in its main effect (a Grip icon negates a single fall icon, for example). So Stomp would have a main effect Fall Icon; Move would be some kind of passive boost for the Titan's next round.
 
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Jessey
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Some progress, but not in mechanics. I picked up this cool drawing software called Hexels and, using images of a Colossus from Shadow of the Colossus started to draw my own Titan! Bwahahah! Progress image below.



I figured that if I drew my own graphics I could have more varied cards... Probably not the best plan, given timeline, but I also wanted an excuse to play around with Hexels.. which is quite fun to doodle with.
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crazybyzantine wrote:
I like. Real simple and fast. You could play in a car too!

Thinking about this comment I just realized something amazing... the game is meant to be kept in a tin... a TIN. I don't need shelves to create the 3D effect, you just need to stick a magnet to the back of the Adventurer token (which will probably be a little green cube; that will go nicely with the kind of pixelated graphics style too).

Also, I can put the graphic of the Titan on the bottom of the tin, and the titan player can indicate the weak points with magnets as well (which remains hidden from the adventurer until found). This saves a dozen or so cards for randomizing and tracking where the weak points are.
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Some progress. Still playing with Hexels - the Titan is done, and so are the designs for the tin stickers (now two, one for the interior bottom and one for the interior of the lid -- the Titan was a bit big...). Both side by side shown below:



The three hearts are for tracking the Adventurer's Life, the four green symbols are the Power of the Titan (these are the Titan win conditions - either defeat the Adventurer or reach Full Power).

The hexes are the spaces that the Adventurer can occupy. There are two kinds of move actions - those that let you move between hexes of the same colour and those that let you move between hexes of different colours.

When you Examine you name either a colour or the number of your current hex. The Titan has to tell you if a Weak Spot is or isn't on a space of that colour/number.

Some of the Titan abilities (the particularly powerful ones) resolve only if the Adventurer on is the right colour of space.

I will eventually make them different shapes to match colours (to make it colour-blind friendly) but different colours will be enough for testing.
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todd sanders
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getting good results with that hexels program
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Made the Adventurer card back, and also figured out the style and look of the Adventurer. Where the golem is blocky and chunky I tried to make the adventurer have crisp lines and smoother shading.



Now, I really have to stop playing around with the art and get down to some mechanics stress testing. Up next, figuring out the core action cards. Each side should have several options and the options should play off of each other so that for every action, there is a counter-action, creating a great big RPS thing. I'll probably go for 5 actions each to start, creating an asymmetric Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock arrangement, then tweak from there.

Five, because I want enough that each player has at least 1 unavailable to them each round (a rotating discard where at the end of the round you take the discard into your hand then put the card you played that round into the discard -- so each action has a 1 turn cool down).
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Jessey
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Mocked up the cards... still playing with Hexels.



Play goes like this:
1. Both players pick a card face down
2. Reveal
3. Adventurer Resolves their card
3a. If the icon is complete (ie. the partial on the titan card completes the partial on the Adventurer card) resolve the effect icon beside it (says Effect in red right now)
3b. Resolve the Action
4. Resolve the Titan Action
5. Repeat!

Discard management adds a wrinkle here. The Adventurer always has at least 1 card in the discard. After cards are resolved, that player returns 1 discard card to hand and discards the card they played. The Adventurer will have something like 6 cards (1 move within colour, 1 move to different colour, 1 move and strike, 1 strike, 1 expose, 1 grip).

The Titan has a small deck of cards (15 or so) and a hand of 3. Cards in their discard get reshuffled when they run out of cards to draw OR when they Power Up. The Power Up icon requires the Titan to remove from the game 3 cards in their discard, so as they get closer to full power (and winning), their options become more limited (and the ability to bluff and fake out the other player weakens). Many of their 15 cards are duplicates, and via icon completion, will stand in 50/50 relations to Adventurer cards (so 50% "win" and 50% "lose").

Effects I am considering

For Titan:
1. Fall (Adventurer Falls and takes damage)
2. Smash (Adventurer takes damage)
3. Stagger (Adventurer discards a card)
4. Power Up (Remove 3 discarded cards, shuffle deck and gain 1 Power)
5. Rage (Draw a Card and play 2 cards next turn)
6. Burst (Declare location of a Weak Point and deal 1 Damage to Adventurer if they are in the same colour zone as it)

For Adventurer:
7. Grip (negate Fall effects)
8. Recover (return a discarded card to hand)
9. Climb (move to same colour)
10. Leap (move to different colour)
11. Examine (the Titan says 'yes' if the colour and/or number of your space matches the colour and/or number of at least one Weak Point and 'no' otherwise)
12. Strike (if your current space is a Weak Point, destroy it)
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Card teaser:



This is the Adventurer's "Examine" card. When played, the Titan has to say 'yes' if there is a weak point that matches the colour and/or number of the space the Adventurer is on AND the Titan has to show the Adventurer one card in their hand (they will have 2 at the time).

Gameplay has gotten simpler since the last post, now the Titan's cards (sample below) trigger only if the Adventurer action on the Titan card was played. This has the same net effect as the partial icon system described above but it's much easier for the Titan to grok. Now, the Titan logic is something like "I think the Adventurer will Climb, so I should play a card of mine with the Climb icon on it"



Titan has a deck of 14 cards, a hand of three and draws back up to three each round. The effects they can trigger are Fall (Adventurer drops to the "1 blue" space and loses 1 life if they were on Red or Orange), Wound (Adventurer loses 1 life), Power Up (remove 1 card for each power you have in your discard from the game and gain 1 Power; shuffle discard into deck), Boost (play 2 cards next round).

Adventurer has 4 cards, always available to them, one for each action (Climb, Leap, Examine and Strike).

I've made a prototype copy and I'll be testing out the mechanics today. If that goes well, I should have files available for others to try by tomorrow.
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Components and rules are ready! It's not in "tin" version yet, but this will be good enough for now (as it is you use the tin as a screen to hide the weak point selection - no magnets needed yet).

Tiny Tin Titan Components

Tiny Tin Titan Rules
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Nate
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Some quick feedback and thoughts.

Love the original artwork. The Hexels program seems to be working nicely.

Is the Titan at a disadvantage to the Adventurer? It seems like the Titan needs to guess (1/4 chance) correctly each turn in order to resolve the effects.

Also, if there are only 3 cards in the Titan's hand, there's a chance that you might not even have the card you would like to play. The Adventurer could watch all of the discards and count the cards in a way.

For the Examine action, is there a reason you included both the number and/or color of the space? I guess there is only 1 red spot, 1 five, so it is possible to narrow it down a bit when trying to find the weak spots.

Have you considered having 4 heart icons to be consistent with the power cell icons. I believe it is 3 damage to win or 3 moves to Full Power.

The Power Up mechanic is almost a double-edged sword or a bit of a catch-up mechanic for the Adventurer. Does the adventurer get to see which cards are removed from the game? It could really impact the ability of the Titan to correctly guess what card the Adventurer is going to play.

I like how there are two victory conditions for the Titan. Is there a reason there is only 1 win condition for the Adventurer. Does that give the Titan an advantage at all?

Are there 6 weak point reference cards in the current components file (below the titan board)?

It looks like it is pretty safe to leap when on the blue and yellow spots (only a 1/3 chance of taking a damage, if the titan guesses correctly). I believe you resolve the Titan's action prior to the Adventurer's.

For the 2 card Titan action, if you only match 1, is the effect still resolved?

Quote:
Choose a number of cards in your discard equal to your current Power Level (1 plus 1 for each Power Cell icon beneath the Power Cube).

Can you clarify the wording here? Maybe add numbers to the icons which indicate power level.

It looks like you need to be careful about which cards you remove from the game when powering up. Believe you'll only have 6 left at the 3rd power level which limits your choices and makes it a little easier for the adventurer to sneak by.

Will anything else go on the 12 Titan cards? Lot of space left on those. Perhaps consider how the cards will look when fanned out.

Anyways, this is very creative and looks like a fun little deduction and strategy game. Hope to find some time to test it out soon. Good luck to you and keep up the great work.
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R4D6 wrote:

Is the Titan at a disadvantage to the Adventurer? It seems like the Titan needs to guess (1/4 chance) correctly each turn in order to resolve the effects.

In terms of resolving actions, yes. But the Titan also knows where the weak points are and the Adventurer doesn't.

Quote:
Also, if there are only 3 cards in the Titan's hand, there's a chance that you might not even have the card you would like to play. The Adventurer could watch all of the discards and count the cards in a way.

Absolutely. This is a point of balance that I'm not yet sure on (how many titan cards). As it is, the Titan typically has a wide range of options, adding more cards will increase the chance of a Titan hand being nothing but, say, Examine, but helps reduce the impact of discard counting. It's a point that needs more testing to resolve.

Quote:
For the Examine action, is there a reason you included both the number and/or color of the space? I guess there is only 1 red spot, 1 five, so it is possible to narrow it down a bit when trying to find the weak spots.

To give the Titan an advantage. As you noted, the Titan has to guess correctly to even resolve actions. On the other side of the table, the Adventurer needs to be smart about finding weak points.

It also adds a layer of strategy to the assignment of weak points in the first place. Do you put them all on the same number? Same colour? Spread them out? Those decisions affect how much information a given Examine really reveals.

Quote:
Have you considered having 4 heart icons to be consistent with the power cell icons. I believe it is 3 damage to win or 3 moves to Full Power.

I have. It's a space issue, but I'm going to try and resolve it once I get around to making the spaces different shapes. I'm also going to add numbers to the Life and Power tracks as that will simplify the rules a lot.

Quote:
The Power Up mechanic is almost a double-edged sword or a bit of a catch-up mechanic for the Adventurer. Does the adventurer get to see which cards are removed from the game? It could really impact the ability of the Titan to correctly guess what card the Adventurer is going to play.

I have been playing as yes, they do get to see. However, no one has won by Power Up yet so I'm not sure how difficult it is, and how much of an impact the removal has (only a few games have been played).

Quote:
I like how there are two victory conditions for the Titan. Is there a reason there is only 1 win condition for the Adventurer. Does that give the Titan an advantage at all?

Originally it was just damage for both. The Power Up mechanic was added as a win condition to make sure the game didn't stall. It didn't feel thematically right for the Adventurer to have a "win by default" pathway that put pressure on the Titan player to 'act faster', and so the Adventurer didn't get one.

Quote:
Are there 6 weak point reference cards in the current components file (below the titan board)?

Yes. I forgot to mention why! This is so you can just use a pen/pencil to mark the weak spots instead of using the tin as a shield. It's a hack until I finish the weak spot chart and demand that players have magnets.

Quote:
It looks like it is pretty safe to leap when on the blue and yellow spots (only a 1/3 chance of taking a damage, if the titan guesses correctly). I believe you resolve the Titan's action prior to the Adventurer's.

It is pretty safe to leap from blue and from yellow. However, even getting a fall result sets you back (restart at blue 1) and the Power Up mechanic means that the Titan 'wins' that exchange since they want to get cards into their discard to burn for powering up.

Quote:
For the 2 card Titan action, if you only match 1, is the effect still resolved?

Yup.

Quote:
Quote:
Choose a number of cards in your discard equal to your current Power Level (1 plus 1 for each Power Cell icon beneath the Power Cube).

Can you clarify the wording here? Maybe add numbers to the icons which indicate power level.

Yeah. The first one costs you 1 card, the second 2 cards and the third 3 cards (the third wins you the game). I'm going to put numbers on the cells so that the wording becomes "Choose a number of cards equal to your current Power Level (the number beside the Power Cell the Power cube is on)"

Quote:
It looks like you need to be careful about which cards you remove from the game when powering up. Believe you'll only have 6 left at the 3rd power level which limits your choices and makes it a little easier for the adventurer to sneak by.

You never have to play with only 6 cards. The lowest you get to is 9 (power 1 removes 1, power 2 removes 2 then power 3 removes 3.. but wins the game).

Quote:
Will anything else go on the 12 Titan cards? Lot of space left on those. Perhaps consider how the cards will look when fanned out.

Pictures! Not sure what yet. Also, with the cards being so small and you only having three, I've found I don't fan them.
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Jessey
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Some brainstorming today was accidentally productive. Since I decided to make the Titan a board (and use magnets on the inside of the tin just as a way to track the hidden weak point information), I realized I could make more Titans. Originally the Titan was going to be a sticker inside the tin, but now it's a 2 piece board... so I could have a back side!

I've been thinking about what a second Titan might be like. Probably it's own set of Action Cards, or maybe you just replace the 2 'no trigger' actions.. or I might just redefine some of the icons (the Boost icon, which lets the Titan play 2 cards on the next round could vary by Titan). Of course the board would be differently shaped as well.

Thinking about other ways to make Titans different, I realized I could streamline one of the rules. Right now Falling deals 1 Damage only if you Fall from a red or orange space... I could add a little "!" icon to those spaces and make the rule "Falling deals 1 Damage only if you Fall from an "!" space", which would make it a lot easier to make Titan boards feel different. That could also give me room to make a really different Titan that has icons on the spaces and some actions which check the icon on the space to resolve instead of checking against the card the Adventurer played.

This all started with an idea for a new Adventurer. A character who has actions that are all compound actions. You do two things every turn; but that makes it also easier for the Titan to resolve its Actions. The Actions would be something like (and order of actions is the order you resole them in):

Climb, Leap
Climb, Examine
Examine, Leap
Strike, Climb
Strike, Leap
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Nate
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Will the players be able to chose which titan and which adventurer they use or will it alter the gameplay somehow? Looks like it could help increase the replay value anyways!
 
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Jessey
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That's the idea - so once you pick sides, you secretly pick your 'character' within your side; reveal and have at it.

With 2 Titans and 2 Adventurers that will be 4 "games" with 8 "experiences" (since it's asymmetric, switching sides is a difference experience).
 
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Chad Russell
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Printing this out tonight, hope to give it a try soon. Realy like the fact it has deductive elements and the cool theme.
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trunked wrote:
Printing this out tonight, hope to give it a try soon. Realy like the fact it has deductive elements and the cool theme.

Excited to hear your report! My biggest hold up has been a mental block on what graphics to put on the Titan cards. I do want to make it colour blind friendly though (adding different shapes to the spaces in addition to their colours).

It would be great to get some feedback from others before I set about finalizing things (and possibly making the second Titan and second Adventurer).
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Nate
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trunked wrote:
Printing this out tonight, hope to give it a try soon. Realy like the fact it has deductive elements and the cool theme.

You do a great job crafting the PNP's Chad! Would love to see some pictures.
 
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Chad Russell
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Sure thing!
Please note that the blue cube should be green and the black cube a purple meeple. The right shows the Titan components and the left the adventurer.

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Jessey
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Fantastic looking! You even rounded the corners.
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Needed a break from work for 20min or so, so I took a stab at the second adventurer graphics. Here's the card back one:



This is the Adventurer that takes 2 actions per card. Thematically they use two small weapons (and so is more agile, which is why they have double actions), and to distinguish a bit more from the other adventurer instead of a big flowing cape they wear a red scarf.
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