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Subject: Restricted list rss

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mar hawkman
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So what cards do you guys think should be limited to less than 3 per deck?

I personally kinda think that good place to start would be require decks to have a region affiliation and limit off-region cards to 2.

Obviously that doesn't affect a huge amount of stuff, but a good amount.
 
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Carl Endres
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I don't agree with this for a few reasons. First, how would Dual-Region magi be affected? And what about Nagsis/The Dark Twins? Next, would this also restrict Universal cards to 2x if you're not playing a Universal deck? I think the 1e penalty for off-region cards is already a pretty steep cost, but that's just me.
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callme DESDINOVA
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Most decks would be completely unaffected by this as they tend to use two or fewer copies of out of region cards.

Cald Spell and any deck that needs three Warriors Boots are the only competitive decks that I can think of that would be hurt. This limitation won't help to balance the game but may limit creativity and variety.

I agree that the regional penalty is enough to prevent cross regional abuse.

The problem has always been that some cards a just too powerful and the game has few safeties to prevent the abuse of those cards. Magi has no hand size limit and no penalty for running out of cards. The deck just recycles. Almost all of the broken decks took advantage of at least one of those two things. A player holding about 30+ cards and recycling the same few cards over and over was fairly common.
 
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mar hawkman
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Yeah, universal cards would be excepted.

dual region magi... Well the idea was to have the person go "I'm playing an Orothe deck" (or whatever region) and that would be what determines the region to be used for this purpose. As long as their Magi are Orothe then you're good.(even if they're part something else)

But it was just an idea, I wasn't sure about.

So what cards do you guys think are too powerful to let any deck use 3 of?
 
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Magus Ness
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I have very limited experience with playing the game, but I think there are a few overpowered cards that are used too often. Shockwave should be reduced to 2, Ormagon to 1 or 2, Storm Cloud to 2, maybe Desiccate to 2, Cataclysm to 1...
 
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callme DESDINOVA
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This discussion is kind of pointless for a few reasons.

First, your never going to get everyone to agree on which cards should be limited.
Most of the remaining players have too little experience to know which cards are significantly overpowered.
Some players will want to restrict cards just because they feel that they lost a game because of them.
Some will want to restrict cards that fit into strategies they don't like even though those cards are well balanced.
Some will never admit to themselves that their favorite card or cards are overpowered.
Others know the cards are overpowered but will fight to keep them unrestricted because they like abusing them.
Some will try to punish other regions/strategies by saying certain cards are overpowered when they know that they aren't if cards they abuse are restricted.
There is also a group of people that believe Magi-Nation can't be fixed because all other CCGs are imbalanced so why bother.

Second, a restricted list simply doesn't balance the game. We have tried similar things at New World Manga and they only help a little. In the tournaments currently, all cards are restricted to 2 copies to help prevent abuse. This helped some but not enough to get players to try new strategies. We had to also start penalizing the strongest regions and giving the weakest ones a bonus before we started seeing some variety. It has been more interesting and fun.

Third, there are some cards which should just be banned as they are too powerful to play any number of copies. Last tournament I won a game I had no right to win just because I drew Secrets of the Book in my opening hand. The deck I had was a fun deck that I put together at the last minute and I knew it had a lot of overcosted and inefficient cards. Because I had Secrets, it did not matter that a third of my cards were junk. I had the answer to everything my opponent did because I had over 20 cards in my hand for most of the game. Much of the thought and need for planning and skill was taken out of the game. It was as if I was playing the whole game with access to every card in the deck. Yes, I was using the errata on Secrets. The errata is a joke. It is hardly a restriction at all. 3 energy to draw 3 or 4 card and see my opponents hand is far too powerful.

Finally, even banning certain cards won't balance the game. Some regions like Orothe are simply too weak without their overpowered cards. Orothe stared out as the weakest region by far. Awakening improved it some but not enough. Dream's end and Nightmare's Dawn moved it up to overpowered and then broken. After all the errata there are still a couple of abusable cards. If you remove them Orothe simply dosen't have enough good balanced cards to compete. The problem is not just that there are overpowered cards. Most of the cards in the game are actually too weak.
 
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mar hawkman
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Well that's an interesting observation. I do kinda agree though that game balance is generally weird.
 
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Wence the Wanderer
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marhawkman wrote:
Yeah, universal cards would be excepted.

dual region magi... Well the idea was to have the person go "I'm playing an Orothe deck" (or whatever region) and that would be what determines the region to be used for this purpose. As long as their Magi are Orothe then you're good.(even if they're part something else)

But it was just an idea, I wasn't sure about.

So what cards do you guys think are too powerful to let any deck use 3 of?


So you're saying i can't have a stack of magi that don't all share at least one region?

There goes most of the usefulness of Staff of Keepers, Yerthe, Evil Evu, Prek, Gorran, and many other magi who are specifically designed to cross regional lines either for a specific region that they are not, or for a specific creature type.

As for restricting any particular cards to 1 per deck simply because they are "too good", personally I've never been a fan of that because if it is too strong to allow 3, it is too strong to allow 1. The exception would be cards that stack on copies of themselves in weird or ridiculous ways, most of which have been fixed by Errata (Rala comes to mind).
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mar hawkman
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Pseudo-dual region magi would be excluded from that. :/
 
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Reggie Harper
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I hope this thread isn't dead I have a very troubling question. VoS was the last set to release for magi nation, I'm actually getting back into the game and plan on making a themed deck for every region to bring to gaming meet ups I have with friends to see if I can resurrect a fun but forgotten TCG. I haven't played since the base set released but have collected just about all cards from all sets to be satisfied. My question is, some cards that were deemed "abused" or "overpowered" were later reprinted to have texted changed or powers adjusted. So with VoS being the last set released, most cards that seem overpowered n that set never got the chance to be changed or nerfed. So the card (magi) that comes to my mind is Velouria, I mean c'mon a Non cost power to select a creature and have it be able to deal direct dmg to an opposing magi AND she gains energy equal to the dmg dealt. This just screams abuse and GG. How would you deal with this and any suggestion on what would make it a little more fair. I suggest that if the power is used on a creature, THAT creature can be the only creature to attack that turn, and the power cant be used again unless the creature has been removed from play. I mean that's a total energy lock/leech plus energy gain for her guaranteed every turn as long as she had a creature..any comments suggections?
 
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mar hawkman
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BlueFurok. http://www.bluefurok.com/
 
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Magus Ness
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Velouria has a pitiful energize of 4, so she almost needs to have a Magi-attacking Creature every turn. This limits her field potential if she's not attacking other Creatures (if it would be advantageous anyway). A similar Magi is Ninx. S/He reduces the opposing Magi's energy to whatever Ninx is at, which means you can almost never save up any energy against them. The best strategy against both of them is to have little or no energy left on your Magi at the end of every one of your turns. Use as much as you can. The only time you can play bigger Creatures and Spells is when your next Magi is out or if you use Rayje's Belt (or Sorreah) to stop their abilities.

Both Velouria and Ninx are decent Magi, but not overpowered. Most cards are considered balanced right now (using the MRP list), but you can still find a few outlying cards that are a bit powerful. This mostly depends on the current meta of the group you'll be playing with (if you will get into it enough to start making other decks).

I and a few others went more in-depth at the subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MagiNation/comments/3yxijn/the_card...

The MRP (Most Recent Printing) list is available at Blue Furok. If you follow those, you won't have too many overpowered cards and ridiculous combos (like infinite energy...). Infinite energy is still possible but is very difficult to pull off and requires some advanced thinking. You shouldn't need to worry about that, though.

d'Resh is considered the most powerful region. Arderial is next. Then Universal (Rayje) and Core are typically afterward, with Naroom after them. Nar is the worst. Underneath and Paradwyn aren't that great. Kybar's Teeth is closer to the middle. The rest are in the middle. This is a general case for competitive battling, though. Some people have tried to go on a similar road as you with some themed decks, usually one or two per region. It's pretty hard! Practice and experimentation is required, and that's part of the fun of CCGs/TCGs.

 
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mar hawkman
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Ohh.. yeah Velouria does sound hard to use well.

One thing I LOVE doing with decks (that can do it anyways) is having creatures that pass energy back and forth. Abilities like move one energy from {this}, put two energy on target creature. It's "free" energy but it requires using powers and it really only gives you stuff once a turn.
 
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Magus Ness
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Rayje is my favourite Magi. His Aid is often the second ability I choose; it's amazing! Alone, it's typically a two-energy advantage: -1 from as opponent's Creature, +1 to one of your Creatures. Coupled with Rayje's Construct or Mirror Pendant, it's still a two-energy advantage: -2 total on the opponent's side of the field, and breaking even on your side. Using both is -3 and -1, still a two-energy advantage, but the utility is still nice. Additionally, when you have the Construct and/or Ring of Secrets, you gain +1 on a Creature every time you play a Relic.

Rajye is wonderful like that; a little bit of energy here and there...

Cald, Naroom, and Weave have cards that transfer energy more often than other regions.

If you really like using Powers for stuff like that, you can look into K'teebs. Their Dream Cross Power is insane and is the basis for most ridiculous combos (like probably every possible infinite energy combo before or after the errata).
 
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mar hawkman
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The ones I use most are Xyx and Flame Rudwots.
 
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Magus Ness
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Xyxes are wonderful. A fun Arderial deck could start with Delia to have a ridiculous Vellup army, a Magi of your choice in the middle, and the last Magi being Defender of the Sky! Summon a Xyx, Xyx Elder, and some Xyx Minors for a fun little Xyx army. The Storm Shield can help, too.

The Smoke Xyx can be useful. The Bubble Xyx can give you some card drawing ability. Sandstorm Xyx can be used in that first turn! That's like using two Storm Clouds (10 total cost) for only 5 energy (Sandstorm Xyx + Shooting Star, if you're using Defender of the Sky). If your Defender isn't out, you can use a Xyx Minor to do it.

To top it all off, the Cry of Thunder is amazing. Be careful with any of your Creatures that would not be able to attack, though...

Many of the greatest Arderial decks don't really use Xyxes, though, but they're certainly fun.
 
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mar hawkman
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Yeah, It's the Xyx Minor that I use for it. It does a great job of passing around energy.
 
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callme DESDINOVA
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+1 Xyx fan.

Reggielee wrote:
So with VoS being the last set released, most cards that seem overpowered n that set never got the chance to be changed or nerfed. So the card (magi) that comes to my mind is Velouria, I mean c'mon a Non cost power to select a creature and have it be able to deal direct dmg to an opposing magi AND she gains energy equal to the dmg dealt. This just screams abuse and GG.

I want to be sure you understand the rules about when Magi are defeated. A Magi is not defeated when it has zero energy unless you also have no Creatures in play. In another thread(Defense Against Nar) a player that felt Veloria was overpowered got this rule wrong.

I know from personal experience that she is actually pretty weak.

A few years ago, I wanted to make a Nar deck but had no inspiration on where to start. I looked at Deck Tech and built one of those decks. It had Veloria in it. Even though my first game went fairly well, I noticed a big weakness with Veloria. My opponent figured it out in the second game and beat me badly. He simply used all his energy every turn she was in play. He tried to keep Veloria alive as he was slowly gaining energy advantage. I had to defeat her myself by using all her energy and that is not easy to do with Nar. If I had been thorough and looked at the comments section for the Deck Tech listing, I could have avoided this.

I have played against Veloria a few times since that day and she has always been a pushover.

I am not saying the game is balanced. It is far from it. There are still several cards that are abusable and/or overpowered but Veloria is not one of them.
 
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mar hawkman
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Yeah, there are a lot of things like that actually. They look powerful, until you figure out how to counter-strategize. and then there's some that sound powerful until you try using them.... like Nara. Her effect reads as if she gets double power from healing her creatures. But it only works on SPELLs, something Cald is weak in. If she was a Cald/Naroom Magi she'd be a lot better.

Veloria would be scarier if her opponents had reason to fear spending all their energy on creatures. But Nar doesn't have many creature removal options.
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callme DESDINOVA
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Yeah, Nar is great at removing energy from Magi directly without using Veloria but has a lot of trouble sweeping away all of the opposing Creatures. Many of the Magi can't use or get an extra penalty for using out of region Creature removal.
 
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mar hawkman
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How many options does Nar have for either killing creatures outright, or damaging them outside battle?
 
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Magus Ness
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Hmm... I'll list some cards relevant to Magi and Creature damage.

Aegris can attack Magi directly (frozen).

Blizzard Hyren does Creature and Magi damage (frozen).

Garlak does minor Creature damage, more if frozen.

Gransaber can sacrifice a fellow Nar Creature to restore itself to 8 energy.

Grendile can deal damage to Magi equal to the energy it has left after it attacks.

Ice Arboll can add 2 energy to each of your other Creatures (frozen).

Iceberg Hyren (3-cost), if attacked, and you discard 1 energy from your Magi, gains a whopping 9 energy! I love these things, but they're not as useful if you can't defend them from Spell and Power damage.

Ice Furok loses no energy in attacks with frozen Creatures.

Kintor (3-cost) removes a die roll's worth of energy. Not worth it.

Korul does preemptive damage to a Creature depending on the number of the opposing Magi's Relics.

Kyroll can downright discard frozen Creatures.

Mombak can heal other Creatures; more if they're frozen.

Sunglare Celphet can react to an opposing Spell or Power that discards energy from one of your Creatures; it counters it to deal that much damage to any Creature or Magi you choose.

Vrak gains 6 free energy! But it can't be alone.

Worgle can discard 2 energy from a number of opposing Creatures equal to the number of frozen Creatures you own.

Bronn can double a Creature's energy (but discard it at the end of that turn).

Koza deals minor damage to Magi for each Relic you play (once per turn).

Odavast provides some defense for his frozen Creatures.

Hailstorm Pendant can do damage to a Creature equal to your Magi's energize, only when you have no Creatures in play. It's pretty awesome.

Icefang Battlesled adds 2 energy to a Creature and demands that it attacks an opposing Magi that turn.

Blizzard discards one of your and one of an opposing Magi's Creatures.

Brittlebreak discards energy to every Creature depending on the number of their owner's Relics.

Crushing Ice deals 4 damage to a Creature and potentially 3 to the Magi.

Crystallize can prevent a Creature from attacking as long as it remains attached to the Creature.

Exposure deals Magi damage equal to their own energize.

Ice Rupture sacrifices one of your Creatures to deal its damage to both an opposing Creature and its Magi.

Shattering Wind discards energy from an opposing Magi every time one of your Creatures attacks, until the end of the turn.

Shattershards discards an opposing Relic and deals damage to one of their Creatures. This card is great.

Snowball is a counter-discard; if your opponent discards a Creature, Spell, or Relic, you discard one of their cards of the same type.

Thin Ice adds 1 energy to each of your frozen Creatures and discards 1 energy to each opposing frozen Creature.

Flashfreeze discards energy from a Creature equal to the number of frozen Creatures you control.

You can look at the lists on Blue Furok here and here to read about them.

Edit: So there's definitely some decent power in terms of both Magi and Creature damage, but Nar is still mediocre in that regard, mostly because of that frozen mechanic. It's difficult to keep cards frozen, and only a few select cards freeze others--usually small Creatures and Relics that are easy to destroy.
 
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mar hawkman
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Yeah, I knew they had a few, but compared to what Orothe or Arderial can do Nar spells lack power.

Do you think it was a mistake to not have a spell that can freeze cards? It seems odd that there are so many things that USE the frozen status, but so few that can inflict it.
 
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Magus Ness
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Definitely a mistake. Nar is the weakest region because of how poorly implemented that frozen mechanic is. What's worse is that there's no drawing power. Locke gets kinda close to having some draw power, but it's really only worth it if he's frozen--and he doesn't start with any cards that may use to freeze himself.

I suppose it could be argued that it's part of Nar's theme, where the Magi have low starting energy, high energize, low starting cards, and a system that runs as they draw the cards. So they'll get the occasional card drawing power here and there, but not a bunch at once at the beginning (Tiller), consistent drawing power (Evu, Rayje), or powerful stalling (Delia, Myka). Unfortunately, it's less efficient and reliable than other regions' drawing capabilities, and other regions would still be overpowering because Nar's drawing power needs to be incorporated in random cards in their deck while the other regions typically don't need to do that and can replace them with more useful cards.

Nar wouldn't be as bad if their Magi had better starting cards--something for drawing or freezing, depending on the Magi. One suggested fix was to change a single card: Essence of Frost. If we add: "STARTING: Any Nar Magi" (similar to Weave Powder for any Weave Magi), then all Nar Magi would have access to the frozen mechanic from the beginning. Unfortunately, it may not last long because of the many Relic destroying card possibilities, but it would be a decent setup for Nar.

Locke would then be a go-to first Magi for drawing power, which is not really a good thing, but other regions suffer from that situation, too: most Naroom decks start with Evu or Tiller, most Arderial decks start with Delia, most Bograth decks start with Baa, many good Cald decks start with League Elder, etc.
 
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mar hawkman
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I was thinking of something like:

Ice Storm - 3 - Nar Spell
All cards in play are frozen.
 
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