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Ashes: Rise of the Phoenixborn» Forums » Rules

Subject: Pain Link Resolution on Death rss

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Arsi Bal
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I've only tried the game at our FLGS so I have no access to the rules (I'm hoping we were playing it right) but I was fighting Jessa Na Ni (sp?) and came upon a scenario where I was hitting for 7 to the opponent's phoenixborn but he blocked with the unit with the Pain Link ability. It was buffed so it had 5 life but my 7 dmg should kill it. We were, however, confused on whether Pain Link would trigger before the unit dying or would it cancel since it did not live long enough to resolve the effect.

It was at matchpoint at that time - either the damage would be reflected to me at which point I lose or kill that damn unit and have a fighting chance since he was out of units in the battlefield. IMO, it looks a little overpowered though if Pain Link resolves first because that would be a very anti-nuke strategy, not only preventing spiky damage to your phoenixborn but goes so far as returning the damage.

We did decide Pain Link should resolve first so I lost. Pretty cool game, though.
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Donny Behne
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Here's the sequence of resolution:

For a single attack. Repeat as necessary for multiple attacks/multiple battles. Active player chooses order of attacks.
1. Damage is dealt. Active player chooses order. (no wounds)
2. Damage trigger effects. Active player chooses order.
3. {a} Wounds, {b} unit (+phoenixborn) destruction, and {c} unit destruction effects trigger. Active player chooses order.
4. Exhaustion tokens placed on attacking and countering units


Here's some real examples with Living Doll and Hammer Knight:

Quote:
Hammer Knight (0 wounds, no buffs) vs. Living Doll (2 wounds, no buffs)
1. Knight deals 4 damage to Living Doll. (No wound tokens are placed.)
2. AP gives priority to their Hammer Knight and places one wound token on Doll to resolve Aftershock. Doll now has 3 wound tokens and dies immediately before Pain Link can be triggered.
3. Knight took no damage, so no wound tokens are placed.
4. Exhaustion token is placed on Knight.

In this scenario, the HK player is the active player and they are able to use After Shock to kill Living Doll before the inactive player can trigger Pain Link. Since Aftershock and Pain Link are both "on damage" effects, the active player selects order of resolution.

Quote:
Living Doll (2 wounds, no buffs) vs. Hammer Knight (0 wounds, no buffs)
1. Knight deals 4 damage to blood doll. (No wound tokens are placed.)
2. AP gives priority to their Living Doll and inflicts 3 damage to IP's phoenixborn using Pain Link. IP now resolves their Knight's Aftershock ability by placing 1 wound marker on the Living Doll. It now has 3 wound tokens and dies.
3. Knight took no damage, so no wound tokens are placed on it, but 3 are placed on IP's phoenixborn.
4. Exhaustion token is placed on Knight.

In this case, the Living Doll is active and the HK is inactive. Again, both happen at the same time so the active player resolves pain link first, then the inactive player resolves After Shock.

I hope that helps.

http://www.plaidhatgames.com/sum_forums/showthread.php?11585...
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Marc Bennett
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in your case, it is much simpler

1) damage is delt (do not place wounds)
2) pain link triggers, you would take 5 damage in your example
3) wounds placed on living doll
4) living doll is destroyed

so yes you would have lost in this case.
 
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Simon
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kelann08 wrote:
Here's the sequence of resolution:

For a single attack. Repeat as necessary for multiple attacks/multiple battles. Active player chooses order of attacks.
1. Damage is dealt. Active player chooses order. (no wounds)
2. Damage trigger effects. Active player chooses order.
3. {a} Wounds, {b} unit (+phoenixborn) destruction, and {c} unit destruction effects trigger. Active player chooses order.
4. Exhaustion tokens placed on attacking and countering units


Here's some real examples with Living Doll and Hammer Knight:

Quote:
Hammer Knight (0 wounds, no buffs) vs. Living Doll (2 wounds, no buffs)
1. Knight deals 4 damage to Living Doll. (No wound tokens are placed.)
2. AP gives priority to their Hammer Knight and places one wound token on Doll to resolve Aftershock. Doll now has 3 wound tokens and dies immediately before Pain Link can be triggered.
3. Knight took no damage, so no wound tokens are placed.
4. Exhaustion token is placed on Knight.

In this scenario, the HK player is the active player and they are able to use After Shock to kill Living Doll before the inactive player can trigger Pain Link. Since Aftershock and Pain Link are both "on damage" effects, the active player selects order of resolution.

Quote:
Living Doll (2 wounds, no buffs) vs. Hammer Knight (0 wounds, no buffs)
1. Knight deals 4 damage to blood doll. (No wound tokens are placed.)
2. AP gives priority to their Living Doll and inflicts 3 damage to IP's phoenixborn using Pain Link. IP now resolves their Knight's Aftershock ability by placing 1 wound marker on the Living Doll. It now has 3 wound tokens and dies.
3. Knight took no damage, so no wound tokens are placed on it, but 3 are placed on IP's phoenixborn.
4. Exhaustion token is placed on Knight.

In this case, the Living Doll is active and the HK is inactive. Again, both happen at the same time so the active player resolves pain link first, then the inactive player resolves After Shock.

I hope that helps.

http://www.plaidhatgames.com/sum_forums/showthread.php?11585...

So this errata has been officially released, then?
 
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Nathan Fritz
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Yup. Living Dolls take some finesse to destroy and can be devastating otherwise. My son uses them to great effect.
 
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Nathan Fritz
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DoubleH wrote:
So this errata has been officially released, then?

Not yet, but based on that thread, I believe it will be included in the FAQ when it is released soon.

It clarifies the damage resolution steps slightly, but maintains the original design decisions made when the rules were written (again, as I understand it in the thread).
 
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Donny Behne
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DoubleH wrote:


So this errata has been officially released, then?

This is pulled from a public discussion on the PHG boards. It has been included in the FAQ which is not released yet. It's still being worked on. As soon as it's done, Plaid Hat will make it available.
 
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Arsi Bal
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Cool, thanks for the clarification!
 
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Lluluien
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kelann08 wrote:
Here's the sequence of resolution:

For a single attack. Repeat as necessary for multiple attacks/multiple battles. Active player chooses order of attacks.
1. Damage is dealt. Active player chooses order. (no wounds)
2. Damage trigger effects. Active player chooses order.
3. {a} Wounds, {b} unit (+phoenixborn) destruction, and {c} unit destruction effects trigger. Active player chooses order.
4. Exhaustion tokens placed on attacking and countering units


Here's some real examples with Living Doll and Hammer Knight:

Quote:
Hammer Knight (0 wounds, no buffs) vs. Living Doll (2 wounds, no buffs)
1. Knight deals 4 damage to Living Doll. (No wound tokens are placed.)
2. AP gives priority to their Hammer Knight and places one wound token on Doll to resolve Aftershock. Doll now has 3 wound tokens and dies immediately before Pain Link can be triggered.
3. Knight took no damage, so no wound tokens are placed.
4. Exhaustion token is placed on Knight.

In this scenario, the HK player is the active player and they are able to use After Shock to kill Living Doll before the inactive player can trigger Pain Link. Since Aftershock and Pain Link are both "on damage" effects, the active player selects order of resolution.

Quote:
Living Doll (2 wounds, no buffs) vs. Hammer Knight (0 wounds, no buffs)
1. Knight deals 4 damage to blood doll. (No wound tokens are placed.)
2. AP gives priority to their Living Doll and inflicts 3 damage to IP's phoenixborn using Pain Link. IP now resolves their Knight's Aftershock ability by placing 1 wound marker on the Living Doll. It now has 3 wound tokens and dies.
3. Knight took no damage, so no wound tokens are placed on it, but 3 are placed on IP's phoenixborn.
4. Exhaustion token is placed on Knight.

In this case, the Living Doll is active and the HK is inactive. Again, both happen at the same time so the active player resolves pain link first, then the inactive player resolves After Shock.

I hope that helps.

http://www.plaidhatgames.com/sum_forums/showthread.php?11585...

I feel like this needs some further discussion (kelann08 explains it correctly in his post, but I managed to still misunderstand it the first time I read it through no fault of his), because when I first read this post I about flipped my @$%^ thinking "This is the stupidest thing ever, because if killing the Living Doll prevented using Pain Link, then there would be no point whatsoever of including the last line about Pain Link's maximum damage being the life of the Living Doll."

To whoever is reading the first example: pay very, very close attention to the fact that Living Doll already has 2 wounds in that example. Hammer Knight's attack isn't killing the Living Doll; Aftershock is killing the Doll. The Doll was never active during the time when it could resolve its damage trigger because it died before the damage was "dealt" to it from the original attack (with quotes on "dealt" because the process of being "dealt" damage - including the resulting triggers - is split up into two steps here).

Kelann08 explained that in his original post, but the part that my mind objected to was the notion that Pain Link wasn't a conditional trigger that would fire anyway because of Living Doll having been dealt the 4 damage from the attack. That's where the fact that the Living Doll has 2 wounds already becomes very important - the Doll died before reaction to the attack damage takes place.

For contrast, let's say that Living Doll had Undying Heart (+2 life) and no wounds, and Hammer Knight attacks.

1. Knight deals 4 damage to Living Doll.

2a. Hammer Knight triggers Aftershock and places 1 wound on Living Doll.

2b. Living Doll triggers Pain Link, dealing 4 damage to the Hammer Knight. This damage could have been dealt to another unit or the opponent, but killing the Hammer Knight here brings up something interesting in the next step.

3. The Doll takes 4 wounds from the Hammer Knight's attack, and critically, now is the point where the Living Doll dies (because it already had 1 wound from Aftershock). That's why it's able to use Pain Link in step 2b as opposed to the previous example where the Doll died in step 2a. Furthermore, since this damage was dealt in step 1, it doesn't matter that the Hammer Knight died in step 2b as a result of Pain Link - Living Doll receives the 4 wounds from the attack anyway.

4. No exhaustion tokens are placed because neither unit survived until this step of the attack resolution.
 
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Donny Behne
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In my defense, these examples were written by someone else and I merely copy and pasted them. They were confirmed by Bob Klotz, lead playtester. I linked the original post on the PHG forums hoping people would refer there if necessary.

I think those examples are attempts to be incredibly detailed in their information and that may lead to confusion if not very carefully considered and analyzed. I still think this will become straightforward as people get used to the heuristics of this game and what separates it from competitors.
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Simon
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lluluien wrote:
I feel like this needs some further discussion (kelann08 explains it correctly in his post, but I managed to still misunderstand it the first time I read it through no fault of his), because when I first read this post I about flipped my @$%^ thinking "This is the stupidest thing ever, because if killing the Living Doll prevented using Pain Link, then there would be no point whatsoever of including the last line about Pain Link's maximum damage being the life of the Living Doll."

To whoever is reading the first example: pay very, very close attention to the fact that Living Doll already has 2 wounds in that example. Hammer Knight's attack isn't killing the Living Doll; Aftershock is killing the Doll. The Doll was never active during the time when it could resolve its damage trigger because it died before the damage was "dealt" to it from the original attack (with quotes on "dealt" because the process of being "dealt" damage - including the resulting triggers - is split up into two steps here).

Kelann08 explained that in his original post, but the part that my mind objected to was the notion that Pain Link wasn't a conditional trigger that would fire anyway because of Living Doll having been dealt the 4 damage from the attack. That's where the fact that the Living Doll has 2 wounds already becomes very important - the Doll died before reaction to the attack damage takes place.

Note that it appears that this a functional change from the original: Living Doll MUST be alive for it's effect to trigger. Since wounds were originally placed simultaneously with damage, any damage equal or greater than Living Doll's life would have negated it's ability consistently: I don't think anyone I've played with (a small sample of 7 people, admittedly) thought that Living Dolls ability was contingent on it surviving the damage. It appears that Ashes now requires the source of the ability to be in play when resolving it's effects but then... how do Action Spells that go directly to the discard pile work now?
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kelann08 wrote:
In my defense, these examples were written by someone else and I merely copy and pasted them. They were confirmed by Bob Klotz, lead playtester. I linked the original post on the PHG forums hoping people would refer there if necessary.

I think those examples are attempts to be incredibly detailed in their information and that may lead to confusion if not very carefully considered and analyzed. I still think this will become straightforward as people get used to the heuristics of this game and what separates it from competitors.

No need for a defense; your post was great Sorry if I didn't make that clear when I posted above - the confusion was mine. I just thought it was worth continuing the discussion based on the thought process I worked through when I finally understood all the information that you gave us.
 
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DoubleH wrote:
Note that it appears that this a functional change from the original: Living Doll MUST be alive for it's effect to trigger. Since wounds were originally placed simultaneously with damage, any damage equal or greater than Living Doll's life would have negated it's ability consistently: I don't think anyone I've played with (a small sample of 7 people, admittedly) thought that Living Dolls ability was contingent on it surviving the damage. It appears that Ashes now requires the source of the ability to be in play when resolving it's effects but then... how do Action Spells that go directly to the discard pile work now?

That's why I objected to the examples that were posted until I realized how I had misunderstood them the first time I read through them; based on the way the card was written and the way that this kind of effect is handled in many card games, I would've expected that this was a conditionally triggered ability that would've been available to use regardless of whether or not the Living Doll died.

I'm okay with this example for an interesting edge case that produces perhaps counter-intuitive results based on the stated methodology for resolving timing considerations during an attack. I think it's somewhat non-standard thinking for this kind of card game: say what you will about Magic, but the "stack" timing mechanism is there because it works, and the name "stack" is stolen from a well-known data structure in computer science that is also used because it works. However, Android: Netrunner handles all of its timing shenanigans in a similar way, so it doesn't make me cringe as much as it might have once upon a time, and this game appears to be a very attractive refuge for ex-Netrunner players (of which I am one) based on posts here and reddit.

There have been a few really nightmarish rules problems for cards in Netrunner though (examples: the new current for the Corp that "copies" a stolen agenda in the Runner's scored area or Accelerated Diagnostics playing an operation that changes R&D), so I hope these guys know the can of worms they're opening up if they decide they're going to go with this style of triggered ability resolution instead of the fire-and-forget stack.


Edit: Just so it's said for the record - any of my criticism of the rules here, perceived or otherwise, is not intended to be a reflection of my general opinion of the game. I think this game is bloody excellent and it's been 1,023,480x easier to convince my friends to play this than it was to play Netrunner. That alone is going to make this game very successful.
 
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ROBERT KLOTZ
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DoubleH wrote:
Note that it appears that this a functional change from the original: Living Doll MUST be alive for it's effect to trigger. Since wounds were originally placed simultaneously with damage, any damage equal or greater than Living Doll's life would have negated it's ability consistently: I don't think anyone I've played with (a small sample of 7 people, admittedly) thought that Living Dolls ability was contingent on it surviving the damage.

Let me say that the statement that originally indicated the ability triggered regardless, even if the doll was destroyed by a previously triggered effect, was made by me, and I was in the wrong. One of the problems of having a long history in magic and many other card games is getting these minor differences mixed up sometimes. The error was mine.
DoubleH wrote:
It appears that Ashes now requires the source of the ability to be in play when resolving it's effects but then... how do Action Spells that go directly to the discard pile work now?

A fair question. On page 10 of the rulebook, in the sections about Action Spells and Reaction spells the rulebook states:
Rulebook wrote:
Doug then discards Seal as directed on the placement section of the card. Since the card was an action spell, he immediately carries out Seal’s effect.
and
Rulebook wrote:
Doug then discards Shadow Counter as directed on the placement section of the card, and since the card was a reaction spell, immediately carries out its effect.
So carrying out the effect of an action or reaction spell that is in the discard pile is a feature shared by action and reaction spells as described in the rulebook. Some rules points can be difficult to figure out, and sometimes one word can make a huge difference, in general the rules were written to be easily understood by a new and casual player, still these procedural questions are important for the competitive player so I will do my best to continue to answer to the best of my ability.
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Phuzzworthy wrote:
Let me say that the statement that originally indicated the ability triggered regardless, even if the doll was destroyed by a previously triggered effect, was made by me, and I was in the wrong. One of the problems of having a long history in magic and many other card games is getting these minor differences mixed up sometimes. The error was mine.
Are you saying the Living Doll was never supposed to deal damage if it took lethal wounds? Because as it stands, it appears that non-action/reaction spells are exempt from an unstated rule that a effect that is created by a source that that is in the discard is negated. If this is the case, are On Destruction abilities also an except? For example, the Gilder puts a Status token on another unit when it is destroyed: it should be in the graveyard, and therefore it's ability negated, but it should obviously still work: the ability text might as well be blank otherwise. Am I just fatally misunderstanding some portion of the rules?
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DoubleH wrote:
Phuzzworthy wrote:
Let me say that the statement that originally indicated the ability triggered regardless, even if the doll was destroyed by a previously triggered effect, was made by me, and I was in the wrong. One of the problems of having a long history in magic and many other card games is getting these minor differences mixed up sometimes. The error was mine.
Are you saying the Living Doll was never supposed to deal damage if it took lethal wounds? Because as it stands, it appears that non-action/reaction spells are exempt from an unstated rule that a effect that is created by a source that that is in the discard is negated. If this is the case, are On Destruction abilities also an except? For example, the Gilder puts a Status token on another unit when it is destroyed: it should be in the graveyard, and therefore it's ability negated, but it should obviously still work: the ability text might as well be blank otherwise. Am I just fatally misunderstanding some portion of the rules?

I'm so glad we already have someone like you here asking these sorts of questions
 
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Marc Bennett
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DoubleH wrote:
lluluien wrote:
I feel like this needs some further discussion (kelann08 explains it correctly in his post, but I managed to still misunderstand it the first time I read it through no fault of his), because when I first read this post I about flipped my @$%^ thinking "This is the stupidest thing ever, because if killing the Living Doll prevented using Pain Link, then there would be no point whatsoever of including the last line about Pain Link's maximum damage being the life of the Living Doll."

To whoever is reading the first example: pay very, very close attention to the fact that Living Doll already has 2 wounds in that example. Hammer Knight's attack isn't killing the Living Doll; Aftershock is killing the Doll. The Doll was never active during the time when it could resolve its damage trigger because it died before the damage was "dealt" to it from the original attack (with quotes on "dealt" because the process of being "dealt" damage - including the resulting triggers - is split up into two steps here).

Kelann08 explained that in his original post, but the part that my mind objected to was the notion that Pain Link wasn't a conditional trigger that would fire anyway because of Living Doll having been dealt the 4 damage from the attack. That's where the fact that the Living Doll has 2 wounds already becomes very important - the Doll died before reaction to the attack damage takes place.

Note that it appears that this a functional change from the original: Living Doll MUST be alive for it's effect to trigger. Since wounds were originally placed simultaneously with damage, any damage equal or greater than Living Doll's life would have negated it's ability consistently: I don't think anyone I've played with (a small sample of 7 people, admittedly) thought that Living Dolls ability was contingent on it surviving the damage. It appears that Ashes now requires the source of the ability to be in play when resolving it's effects but then... how do Action Spells that go directly to the discard pile work now?

there is no change from the rules this is just a clarification.

the issue here is they are attempting to avoid any ability triggering at the same time. so with living doll vs iron rhino for example, no ability is triggering for the rhino so there is no conflict with the living dolls ability. living doll will die and deal 3 damage to something.

but with the living doll and the hammer knight, both abilities will trigger at the same time when the hammer knight deals damage. so the current player (most likely the hammer knight in this situation) will choose the order they activate. if for some reason he thought it more beneficial to activate the pain link first he could. if the living doll is undamaged, the after shock would not kill it and pain link would still resolve and deal 3 damage when it did. but if the living doll already has 2 damage, then the aftershock kills it before pain link triggers. (if the hammer knight chooses the living doll to place the wound token on)
 
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Klaxas wrote:
there is no change from the rules this is just a clarification.
Correct, since they have yet to release the revision. But they made it clear that there is a change INTENDED: Combat will have delay between damage and placement of wound tokens. This is a change.

Klaxas wrote:
the issue here is they are attempting to avoid any ability triggering at the same time.
Abilities already trigger at the same time. Someone just chooses the order of resolution. There's nothing directly stated that indicates that effects are canceled after they trigger if the source is in the graveyard. That's what is confusing about the example: Sending the the Doll to the discard pile SHOULD NOT do anything. Damage is dealt. Effects that trigger on damage fire, and resolve. You kill the Doll with Aftershock Okay. Aftershock doesn't trigger a doll proc, because it doesn't do damage. Okay. Doll's effect is canceled because it's no longer in play: What? How? WHY? Unless I'm running off old text again, there's nothing in the Doll's ability that indicates it must be in play for it work. No matter what happens, the Doll's ability should resolve because a source should not need to be in play for it's ability to function. See the Gilder: If a source needs to be in play, the Gilder's ability will never work. If this was what was originally intended (pre-wound-placement change), any lethal wounds on the Doll would've prevented it's ability from resolving, since it would've been in the graveyard: this means that big shooters like the Hammer Knight and Rhino would run roughshod over it because they strike for lethal each time.
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DoubleH wrote:
Doll's effect is canceled because it's no longer in play: What? How? WHY? Unless I'm running off old text again, there's nothing in the Doll's ability that indicates it must be in play for it work.

Exactly. Precisely. +1. This is the crux of what I called the non-standard thinking in my post above.

It's fine for the rules to be like this, but where does it say this, and if it does, does the team that made the decision to have that rule know what they're getting themselves into by having it?

I don't think the Netrunner team did
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DoubleH wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
there is no change from the rules this is just a clarification.
Correct, since they have yet to release the revision. But they made it clear that there is a change INTENDED: Combat will have delay between damage and placement of wound tokens. This is a change.

Klaxas wrote:
the issue here is they are attempting to avoid any ability triggering at the same time.
Abilities already trigger at the same time. Someone just chooses the order of resolution. There's nothing directly stated that indicates that effects are canceled after they trigger if the source is in the graveyard. That's what is confusing about the example: Sending the the Doll to the discard pile SHOULD NOT do anything. Damage is dealt. Effects that trigger on damage fire, and resolve. You kill the Doll with Aftershock Okay. Aftershock doesn't trigger a doll proc, because it doesn't do damage. Okay. Doll's effect is canceled because it's no longer in play: What? How? WHY? Unless I'm running off old text again, there's nothing in the Doll's ability that indicates it must be in play for it work. No matter what happens, the Doll's ability should resolve because a source should not need to be in play for it's ability to function. See the Gilder: If a source needs to be in play, the Gilder's ability will never work. If this was what was originally intended (pre-wound-placement change), any lethal wounds on the Doll would've prevented it's ability from resolving, since it would've been in the graveyard: this means that big shooters like the Hammer Knight and Rhino would run roughshod over it because they strike for lethal each time.

Rulebook, p13 wrote:
[Card Effects and Timing]
if any game effects would seem to trigger at the same time, the player whose turn it is decides the order they will resolve.

by saying "seem to trigger" I am guessing they do not trigger at the same time. they trigger in an order decided by the active player. in which case the word "resolve" at the end of the sentence should actually be "trigger" to make it more clear.

I don't see a conflict with the guilder because nothing is conflicting with it.
 
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Klaxas wrote:
by saying "seem to trigger" I am guessing they do not trigger at the same time. they trigger in an order decided by the active player. in which case the word "resolve" at the end of the sentence should actually be "trigger" to make it more clear.

I don't see a conflict with the guilder because nothing is conflicting with it.

And yet, there's nothing to indicate that effects that would have been triggered do not: simply that they do so in the order of someone's choosing. That is the key difference between our views: You see an unstated "if X is in play when this ability would resolve" on the ability: I do not. I simply see: X, Y and Z trigger: Player A chooses the order in which they resolve. If you add that unstated assumption, the guilder DOES NOT DO anything when it would resolve, since it has already been destroyed by the time of resolution.
 
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DoubleH wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
by saying "seem to trigger" I am guessing they do not trigger at the same time. they trigger in an order decided by the active player. in which case the word "resolve" at the end of the sentence should actually be "trigger" to make it more clear.

I don't see a conflict with the guilder because nothing is conflicting with it.

And yet, there's nothing to indicate that effects that would have been triggered do not: simply that they do so in the order of someone's choosing. That is the key difference between our views: You see an unstated "if X is in play when this ability would resolve" on the ability: I do not. I simply see: X, Y and Z trigger: Player A chooses the order in which they resolve. If you add that unstated assumption, the guilder DOES NOT DO anything when it would resolve, since it has already been destroyed by the time of resolution.

if something "would have triggered" then it didn't trigger and doesn't resolve. if things trigger at the same time, and then resolve in an order of someones choosing, then they still all trigger and all resolve. this is how most card games do things so I see the confusion. but if they trigger in the order of someones choosing, then they can prevent other things from triggering later in the sequence.

in the case of the guilder, the ability triggers "on the destruction of the unit" so regardless of whether or not it goes to the discard pile the ability still triggers and resolves.

I do understand where your coming from. as I said most card games do things as you are describing. I believe the choice to give control of triggers to the current player is they want to encourage aggression rather than defense.
 
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Klaxas wrote:
if something "would have triggered" then it didn't trigger and doesn't resolve. if things trigger at the same time, and then resolve in an order of someones choosing, then they still all trigger and all resolve. this is how most card games do things so I see the confusion. but if they trigger in the order of someones choosing, then they can prevent other things from triggering later in the sequence.

How can they do this? There's nothing states once an effect has lost its source it is canceled. There's nothing that stops the triggering of abilities on these things. Not unless you use that unstated rule I gave you earlier. These abilities have already activated: they are not choosing to activate separate abilities simultaneously (in which case, the simultaneous resolution rule would matter, since they have not been activated yet). What is stopping it? There's nothing, other than an assumption that they meant to write "trigger" rather than "resolve". Your assumptions on the nature of the game are not better than mine simply because you have them. By the same measure, mine are not any better, but I at least understand how I think it works. I have no idea how your idea works without the unstated rule I mentioned.

Quote:
in the case of the guilder, the ability triggers "on the destruction of the unit" so regardless of whether or not it goes to the discard pile the ability still triggers and resolves.
I will grant you this, once you tell me how the ability is stopped, if not by an unstated rule that effects with sources in the graveyard are canceled if they are not action/reaction spells.

Klaxas wrote:
I do understand where your coming from. as I said most card games do things as you are describing. I believe the choice to give control of triggers to the current player is they want to encourage aggression rather than defense.
I am coming from a place that desires rule-sets to have the same adjudication no matter who is judging. This is a difficult thing, as judges are ultimately human, but attempting to come as close as possible to this is fine with me. The rules already encourage aggression: unstated assumptions that are key to determining how effects resolve are not necessary to do this.
 
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DoubleH wrote:

How can they do this? There's nothing states once an effect has lost its source it is canceled.Your assumptions on the nature of the game are not better than mine simply because you have them. By the same measure, mine are not any better, but I at least understand how I think it works. I have no idea how your idea works without the unstated rule I mentioned.

Quote:
in the case of the guilder, the ability triggers "on the destruction of the unit" so regardless of whether or not it goes to the discard pile the ability still triggers and resolves.
I will grant you this, once you tell me how the ability is stopped, if not by an unstated rule that effects with sources in the graveyard are canceled if they are not action/reaction spells.

I am coming from a place that desires rule-sets to have the same adjudication no matter who is judging. This is a difficult thing, as judges are ultimately human, but attempting to come as close as possible to this is fine with me. The rules already encourage aggression: unstated assumptions that are key to determining how effects resolve are not necessary to do this.

I am not trying to say that my assumptions are any better than anyone else's. all I am attempting to do is explain the game as I currently understand it. I cant even cite where many of my assumptions are coming from because I consume a lot of information from various sources. so really all I can do is try to answer your questions as I understand the answers. I very well could be wrong.

I totally agree we want a rule set that can be judged as accurately as humanly possible. from what i understand, nothing in ashes should ever trigger at the same time. when things seem to trigger at the same time, active player decides order. or player with the first player marker if there is no active player (as in during the prepare and recovery phases) this is counter intuitive at first, because many games of this type have simultaneous triggers all the time. the reason i believe they went this rout is since nothing happens at the same time it should be much easier to judge. if nothing happens at the same time, you cant have one judge say one thing and another judge say another thing.

with these assumptions (which again i cannot cite reference for) lets take a look at the example with the hammer knight.

[Living Doll, 3 life, 2 wound tokens]
Hammer Knight attacks Living Doll
No guards declared
Damage Dealt (wounds not placed)

(On Damage effects attempt to trigger [Aftershock] and [Pain Link] active player chooses order because they cannot happen at the same time. active can choose to resolve pain link first but instead chooses aftershock. trigger order becomes...)

[Aftershock]
[Pain Link]

Wounds placed
Unit destruction
Destruction effects trigger
destroyed cards go to discard pile

if the aftershock ability places a wound on the living doll. then the doll will die from wounds before pain link has a chance to trigger. this type of "active player chooses" resolution also prevents judge A from saying aftershock resolves first and judge B from saying pain link resolves first.

again this is just my interpretation based on everything i have read on the subject. i guess what im saying is the ability isn't stopped. it never starts.
 
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Klaxas wrote:
I totally agree we want a rule set that can be judged as accurately as humanly possible. from what i understand, nothing in ashes should ever trigger at the same time. when things seem to trigger at the same time, active player decides order. or player with the first player marker if there is no active player (as in during the prepare and recovery phases) this is counter intuitive at first, because many games of this type have simultaneous triggers all the time. the reason i believe they went this rout is since nothing happens at the same time it should be much easier to judge. if nothing happens at the same time, you cant have one judge say one thing and another judge say another thing.

I don't think this makes anything easier to judge: if anything, it makes it worse, given our slugfest right here. It's entirely clear how to order effects: what's unclear is what is happening after the effects are ordered.

Klaxas wrote:
with these assumptions (which again i cannot cite reference for) lets take a look at the example with the hammer knight.

[Living Doll, 3 life, 2 wound tokens]
Hammer Knight attacks Living Doll
No guards declared
Damage Dealt (wounds not placed)

(On Damage effects attempt to trigger [Aftershock] and [Pain Link] active player chooses order because they cannot happen at the same time. active can choose to resolve pain link first but instead chooses aftershock. trigger order becomes...)

[Aftershock]
[Pain Link]

Wounds placed
Unit destruction
Destruction effects trigger
destroyed cards go to discard pile

if the aftershock ability places a wound on the living doll. then the doll will die from wounds before pain link has a chance to trigger. this type of "active player chooses" resolution also prevents judge A from saying aftershock resolves first and judge B from saying pain link resolves first.

again this is just my interpretation based on everything i have read on the subject. i guess what im saying is the ability isn't stopped. it never starts.

So you're saying that whenever you handle simultaneous effects, you've actually being given an "activation window", before anything is triggers, correct? So the ordering of effects is in practice a sequence of opportunities to use an effect?
 
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