Justin Gortner
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So,

I was originally off-put by the idea of tokens. But after some investigation and rules review, it seems as though if I just got a nice fantasy bag for each player, that mitigates most of the problems people (myself included) had with the tokens.

1 "Throwing tokens is not fun."
Agreed. Stupid. Input bag and fill with tokens. Pulling them out is fun and suspenseful.

2 "Holding and throwing the tokens will wear them quickly"
Mostly agree. I think of it like holding M&Ms candy. I honestly do believe they will weather poorly over time if you are constanly holding and throwing them.

Bag to the rescue yet again here. The tokens will be in your bag most of the time. Need 4 for combat? Shake the bag (cardboard against cloth mean minimal wear) and pull some out. You'll literally be touching them for the period from the bag to the table.

3 "Dice are more satisfying."
Mostly agree here too. But we honestly have plenty of dice games. This is a new and unusual approach that allows for many more permutations and more intelligent combat as things go back and forth and people activate / use tokens.

Having dice with this many unique faces would not be viable.

Anyhow, just wanted to share my thoughts. I understand people will want to reply with, "Another thread on this!?" but I do believe this is a different approach / discussion.

Please share your thoughts!

PS. As a quick additional question, does anyone know how the enemies will be controlled? Will another player have to use / make decisions for the monster tokens?
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C Bazler
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I assume because they are die cut tokens, when you pull them out of the bag you could "cheat" if you knew what was on the front (round edge) and back (flat edge) of each side of the token. In which case, the bag wouldn't be a solution.

I like the idea of placing each token on the table and rolling a d6: 1-3, it stays the same, 4-6, it flips.
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Justin Gortner
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cbazler wrote:
I assume because they are die cut tokens, when you pull them out of the bag you could "cheat" if you knew what was on the front (round edge) and back (flat edge) of each side of the token. In which case, the bag wouldn't be a solution.


It may be time to evaluate your life decisions if you think your friends might do this.

And you could quite easily mitigate this problem by simply emptying the bag out instead of drawing.
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C Bazler
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jgortner wrote:
cbazler wrote:
I assume because they are die cut tokens, when you pull them out of the bag you could "cheat" if you knew what was on the front (round edge) and back (flat edge) of each side of the token. In which case, the bag wouldn't be a solution.


It may be time to evaluate your life decisions if you think your friends might do this.

And you could quite easily mitigate this problem by simply emptying the bag out instead of drawing.


I don't even think it would be a matter of real cheating per se (as in knowingly doing it dishonestly so you can win the game). It might just be a case of you pulling the token out and thinking to yourself "Dang, I know what side this is." You may not even be able to help it.
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David Hoffman
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Another player will have to control the monsters. That's a bigger issue for me than the combat pogs, honestly.
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Paul Newsham
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ohbalto wrote:
Another player will have to control the monsters. That's a bigger issue for me than the combat pogs, honestly.


Doesn't this help with downtime? Giving others things to do on your turn sounds good to me.
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that Matt
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure what makes throwing dice so much more fun than throwing tokens.
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tumorous wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure what makes throwing dice so much more fun than throwing tokens.


I agree, I only think it would be a problem if the tokens got dinged/dented by constant throwing. If certain tokens are used more then others, they will look noticeably more worn, etc., but I imagine you'd have to be throwing them really hard for that.

Stefan Feld's The Pillars of the Earth: Builders Duel has you flip tokens and it's not a big deal at all. In Runebound, it might be a refreshing change from other fantasy combat games.
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Brant Benoit
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How much are people going to playing this game that the tokens are going to wear out?

Get a dice cup.
Problem solved.
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Josh Conner
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Ghool wrote:
How much are people going to playing this game that the tokens are going to wear out?


This. People that have over 200 games in their collection, and 10 Kickstarter's that haven't shipped yet complaining about how they're going to wear this one out.
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Sean D.
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I am going to wait until I play it before I decide if I like the token combat system more than dice. For me there is something just "fun" about shaking and rolling dice, I recognize not everyone feels that way, but I certainly do. I sure like Middle-Earth Quest and that had no dice at all, just an interesting card mechanic for the players that combined movement, combat and health into a single player deck. So, if Runebound 3E has something fun and innovative like that I am willing to try it out.
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My understanding is that using a bag is a bad idea.

You aren't randomly selecting from a pool of tokens for combat (which a bag would be great for), you are only trying to randomize which side of the tokens that you have selected will be active in during combat (which a bag doesn't really help with).

Unless my understanding is wrong, your suggestion seems like it wouldn't make things easier and isn't really that relevant. You are free to do whatever you want, of course.

Ghool wrote:
How much are people going to playing this game that the tokens are going to wear out?

Get a dice cup.
Problem solved.


I don't see token tossing as a big deal, but as a point of reference my 2nd edition of Runebound has the map wearing out, and is using replacement cards and dice due to wear.

Concern about how long cardboard tokens will last is reasonable for some people. Probably not for most people, but certainly for some.
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Justin Gortner
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newuser wrote:
You aren't randomly selecting from a pool of tokens for combat (which a bag would be great for), you are only trying to randomize which side of the tokens that you have selected will be active in during combat (which a bag doesn't really help with).


Gotcha. Well, that's new information for me. Not sure I agree that a bag doesn't help. But it will certainly allow me to brainstorm about a solution more effectively!
 
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newuser wrote:
My understanding is that using a bag is a bad idea.

You aren't randomly selecting from a pool of tokens for combat (which a bag would be great for), you are only trying to randomize which side of the tokens that you have selected will be active in during combat (which a bag doesn't really help with).



If I understand the OP correctly, the bag DOES help randomize the side of the tokens, without tossing them.

"Token Flip" Example: You have 3 tokens. You "toss" them awkwardly onto the table and some flip before they get there devil

Bag example: Put the 3 tokens in the bag. Take one out, using a rule along the lines of "thumb side equals facing up," so whatever face your thumb is on when you take it out of the bag, is the up-most face. You do that for all 3.

Assuming either you do it fast, or you can't tell (even inadvertently) from touch which side is which, this should be totally random.
 
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Brant Benoit
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newuser wrote:
My understanding is that using a bag is a bad idea.

You aren't randomly selecting from a pool of tokens for combat (which a bag would be great for), you are only trying to randomize which side of the tokens that you have selected will be active in during combat (which a bag doesn't really help with).

Unless my understanding is wrong, your suggestion seems like it wouldn't make things easier and isn't really that relevant. You are free to do whatever you want, of course.

Ghool wrote:
How much are people going to playing this game that the tokens are going to wear out?

Get a dice cup.
Problem solved.


I don't see token tossing as a big deal, but as a point of reference my 2nd edition of Runebound has the map wearing out, and is using replacement cards and dice due to wear.

Concern about how long cardboard tokens will last is reasonable for some people. Probably not for most people, but certainly for some.


Runebound is probably the most played game in my household.
I've had it for over 10 years and I can safely say it's been played at least 50 times. It still looks like new.

While I understand that some games will wear, but in all honesty, I don't see the newer games these days showing signs of wear much at all.
I have a copy of Dragon Masters I bought when it first came out, and this is the only game I have that shows signs of wear.

Anything that has come out in the last decade or so is vastly superior in quality compared to anything previous. Especially so with FFG titles.
You have to play a game a lot, or be negligent with the thing to get it to show wear usually. And if I can get 200+ plays from a game after which it shows wear, I'd say that was a pretty good value.

I just don't see the huge issue that wear on the tokens is going to be. Even they do get worn a bit, it's not going to matter much anyways.
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Bill Hartman
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Why not just take some elmer's glue and line the edges of the tokens with it, using a toothpick? Should help reduce fraying and handling issue. I dis this with all components in Smash Monster Rampage (also painted edges with matching acrylic paint so things would look better and last longer.

i probably wouldn't bother to paint something like runebound, but gluing the token edges doesn't really take much time if you are that worries, imo.
 
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My only concern with shaking and casting runes (tokens) is that when you shake coins they tend to all come together and stop mixing rather quickly. I have not done with tokens. I'm not sure a bag or a cup would really resolve this.

Pulling tokens out of a bag (thumb is up) is a good idea though not nearly as fun as a throw down, which would help with randomization because they would bounce - however it would obviously not help with wear and tear...

So far the bag is sounded like a good, but slightly cumbersome activity. What we really need is a Plinko Token Tower. I believe Tom Vasel may have mentioned such a thing first - can't take full credit on this one.

|\ |
| /|
|\ |
| /|
|\
| \_____|

The slants would have to be optimized for tokens to have roughly an equal chance of flipping each time they slide, but dropping them in would also be random enough, I think...
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Justin Gortner
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TopherMel wrote:


|\ |
| /|
|\ |
| /|
|\
| \_____|

The slants would have to be optimized for tokens to have roughly an equal chance of flipping each time they slide, but dropping them in would also be random enough, I think...


This sounds awesome! Or maybe a large open pop-o-matic!
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Christopher Melenberg
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jgortner wrote:
TopherMel wrote:


|\ |
| /|
|\ |
| /|
|\
| \_____|

The slants would have to be optimized for tokens to have roughly an equal chance of flipping each time they slide, but dropping them in would also be random enough, I think...


This sounds awesome! Or maybe a large open pop-o-matic!


Pop-o-matic! Awesome, now the creative juices are flowing.
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Tim Fiscus
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I had no problem casting the tokens during the demo. It was fun and interesting, and at no time did I think I might wear out the tokens with repeated play. I only picked them up to cast them, and that didn't happen all that often.

This thread is cracking me up.
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that Matt
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HuckmanT wrote:
I only picked them up to cast them, and that didn't happen all that often.

Maybe the real issue is that some people are habitual component-fondlers.
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Carey J
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I fixed it

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tumorous wrote:
HuckmanT wrote:
I only picked them up to cast them, and that didn't happen all that often.

Maybe the real issue is that some people are habitual component-fondlers.


You'll go blind doing that. And get hairy palms. Bring a few poker chips or a squishy pikachu doll when playing Runebound and we'll all be alright.
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Carlos Alves
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I don't like the approach that FFG has done with combat tokens instead of using dice, but i understand their decision.

But why didn't study that the combat tokens throwing them, they'll wear a lot after some plays. So instead using cardboard tokens, i would use the coins tokens (plastic or metal).

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