Sig Ouden
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I got TFK and the dungeon tiles from von Drakks Ghost House. I am currently playing a game and I am in a bit of a bind.

On tile 11 there are 3 chasms and I am fighting Succubus Vardella, who can Compel 3. Now the only character on the tile is the Celestial Herald who can fly, so I imagine she would not be affected by ending her turn on a chasm.
But the Ember Mage and the Royal Paladin are ready to enter the tile (to pummel the succubus), but the Chasm card does not specify what happens when a non-flying Hero is compelled to go into the chasm. Is the Hero automatically killed? That would make sense to me, which makes this a killer combo for the Dark Consul.

Or is there some errata that I have overlooked?

Hope there is someone here that knows the answer, thanks!!

 
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Sig Ouden
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Thanks, I overlooked that one. modest
 
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jwreschnig wrote:
Control effects cannot force models to make moves they could not otherwise have legally made (p.29 Classic).


This... but ya, thematically, the Hero should die.... but that would make the love demon OP.
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Brett Hudoba
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There's a vital piece of information missing here: the Chasm Terrain card doesn't state any effects because the very first line reads, "Models cannot move through chasms." The situation as described above isn't possible for this reason, not just a limitation on Compel. In fact, the Celestial Herald wouldn't be able to hover there, either.

That being said, it's always struck me as odd that models with Fly can't pass over Chasm spaces because it seems contrary to the nature of the ability. The more confusing fact is that while line of sight can be drawn through the spaces, they are not specifically defined--thus, you're forced to make a visual extrapolation (which is certainly not difficult).

Perhaps the reasoning is to prevent models with Fly from annoyingly positioning themselves just outside of standard melee range (at least 2 spaces away, assuming the melee attacker doesn't have reach)? However, now there are areas within some of the new Ghost House tiles where a model could exercise that exact strategy over a large Structure (thus adding to the ambiguity).

Personally, this is one instance in which I'm strongly considering a house rule (and would be surprised if other groups haven't already done so, too). In order to keep close to the intended rules, though, I'd suggest models with Fly can pass through Chasm spaces but never end movement (at any point) on them, thus avoiding dilemmas.

Another reason for this is that it offers a pretty awesome tactical strategy for the Rock Top Gang turtles if they could chuck other models across Chasms for better positioning; as it stands, this is currently prevented because the Throw ability is essentially a Push action, which couldn't normally be used through Chasm spaces.

Just my thoughts...
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Brett Hudoba
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Quote:
Models with Fly can pass over, and end their turn on, chasms.

Hmmm...it appears I stand corrected (and should do better research). It's amazing how many times I've read the description for Fly and didn't register chasms are listed as an exception. For clarity's sake it would have been better if the Terrain card read: "Models without Fly cannot move through chasms" or even "Only models with Fly can move through chasms."

blush

Quote:
Chasms are marked like all terrain effects, a bordered area with an icon indicating the terrain type on one of the tiles inside the border. (Both the border and icons are visible in the photo of the board posted.)

I didn't mean to imply that chasms are not indicated at all; I was suggesting that beyond the outlying borders, the individual spaces are not very well defined. However, it seems I had the boards from the original base set in mind when I was writing this, as the newer boards at least have faint lines in the bigger areas and none in 2x2 areas (in which case the spaces are pretty easy to discern).

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I suppose there's a hole in the rules re. what happens if you lose the Fly ability (already a rare occurrence) while over a structure or chasm. In the former case taking one damage and moving to the nearest legal space seems appropriate. Instant death feels more thematic for the latter, but might be overpowered; following how falling damage works in many videogames, maybe lose all but one HP, only dying if you've already only got one remaining.

I'm not sure there really is any hole there, because as far as I know there's no way to lose innate abilities printed in the border of the Hero card (which is where Fly tends to reside). The only odd case that occurs to me is if a Hero were to use the Hexcast Sorceress' Wizard Wings potion that temporarily grants Fly. However, since the benefit would only last until the Upkeep Phase of the model's next activation, it would be illegal (in a preemptive sense) to end its turn hovering over a chasm space.

Which then spurs an additional hypothetical situation: If a Hero model with Fly is hovering over a chasm and gets reduced to zero hearts by a ranged/magic attack or a Mini-Boss with reach, what happens to their equipment? Assuming it's illegal to place a skull token floating in thin air, then by default you'd have to resort to resurrection by Princess Coin to gain the equipment back (along with the Hero).
 
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Sig Ouden
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Well, I found the whole Chasm thing.. anti-climactic. But then it reminded me of the Pit of Despair in WHQ. Of course immediate death would be a little too harsh in a game like this.

So I playtested a house rule; Any Hero, Elite or mini Boss (but not minions) ending on a Chasm square may use either 1 action or their movement on their next activation (just like Knockdown) to climb out and end on an unoccupied, non-structure square at the edge of the chasm. Until their activation they cannot be targeted. This status effect can not be removed by rolling hearts, only by spending the action/move.

Not sure if this works, I only played it once, but in my game the succubus delayed the Heroes more than really killing them off.

Can you imagine the Hearthsworn Fighter standing in the center and pulling all the monsters to their Doom? :-) My house rule might still be a bit OP, but the chasm card as it is sounds pretty boring to me.

And in my rule flying units can hover over a chasm. They can hover over structures, so it makes no real sense to me why they cannot hover over a pit. They are not hovercrafts after all
 
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cableinggg wrote:
jwreschnig wrote:
Control effects cannot force models to make moves they could not otherwise have legally made (p.29 Classic).


This... but ya, thematically, the Hero should die.... but that would make the love demon OP.


Nah, they should reappear beside the chasm, flickering with one less heart.
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Brett Hudoba
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Quote:
Well, I found the whole Chasm thing.. anti-climactic.

Agreed. As it stands, the only real difference between a chasm and a structure is whether or not line of sight is blocked.

Quote:
So I playtested a house rule; Any Hero, Elite or mini Boss (but not minions) ending on a Chasm square may use either 1 action or their movement on their next activation (just like Knockdown) to climb out and end on an unoccupied, non-structure square at the edge of the chasm. Until their activation they cannot be targeted. This status effect can not be removed by rolling hearts, only by spending the action/move.

I really like this idea, but I think it could be simplified even more. I'd suggest that the Terrain effect be adjusted to read something like, "Any model without Fly that would enter a chasm space for any reason instead suffers Knockdown in the last legal space it occupied."

Thematically, I envision this as the model in question throwing itself to the floor, clawing at the flagstones and doing whatever it can to prevent itself from falling into the abyss--but it never actually does so (nor will). While this is indeed a delay tactic rather than a killer, Knockdown can be a total pain if a Hero or Mini-Boss really needs the action points (especially if they have a 3-point special attack in their arsenal).

In this way, chasms would become a much more strategic feature than just a barrier to most models. Thoughts on that?
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Sig Ouden
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I totally agree, it would be a knockdown effect - that was what I tried to achieve anyway. Climbing out of the pit to combat the monsters that pitched him/her in there in the first place.
I was mainly concerned with delaying a game that is already too long even further.
Positioning a Hero on an unoccupied space next to the chasm wih one Wound may be simpler and quicker.

But I like thematics, so I will probably go with the Knockdown effect.
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I also agree with giving the target model the "Knockdown" status effect when settling in a chasm space.

EDIT: But, the rules say that models cannot move through chasms. Moved by the controlling player, moved by an opposing player or both?

I still like the model taking knockdown though.
 
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that Matt
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cableinggg wrote:
I also agree with giving the target model the "Knockdown" status effect when settling in a chasm space.

EDIT: But, the rules say that models cannot move through chasms. Moved by the controlling player, moved by an opposing player or both?

I still like the model taking knockdown though.

Right -- half the discussion above is about making a more flavorful variant.
 
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Brett Hudoba
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jwreschnig wrote:
I don't think applying Knockdown is a good idea, at least if you're among those that thinks the game takes too long.

First, Knockdown is fundamentally an effect that will slow down the game.

But also, most terrain effects are symmetrical. Breaking that and having an ability most commonly on monsters be significantly more powerful on tiles with a specific terrain effect is just going to cause delay as the heroes retreat and refuse to fight on that tile.

For those who have made similar comments, how does Knockdown fundamentally slow down the game? It's merely a status effect that you are forced to deal with on model activation rather than being something you might just choose live with for awhile (like Bane, Slow, etc.)? The only time it would delay things at all is if a player chooses to sacrifice all movement rather than an action point--and quite honestly, there are many instances in which a Hero can still accomplish a lot without having to move.

Unless I misunderstand, though, and what you're suggesting is that with this variant rule you'd ultimately find that Heroes will back off and never try to engage enemies with Push or Compel on tiles with chasms? Do you find that to be the same case with lava or brambles, too (which IMHO can be far more detrimental and damaging)?

Let's take the case of the original post: why wouldn't a Mini-Boss like Succubus Vandalla hang out/lair in an environment that offered a great tactical advantage to her powers? Why would she ever feel the need to pursue Heroes to a different tile if they retreated? To me it adds far more thematic appeal and challenge than if she were defending a regular dungeon tile with no significant features other than walls in which all she can do is shift Heroes slightly out of position (which they later easily surmount by simply spending a few movement points to return to their original location).

I guess there are many different approaches that players take, but in my experience it's not often the best strategy for Heroes to hole up somewhere and let the monsters come to them, because it just provides the Dark Consul that much more time to better coordinate forces as well as more opportunities to spawn. THAT is what slows down the game--not the presence of any particular status effect.

Having said that, drawing a bad Explore card (i.e., no Red button actions are allowed) is a different story and is a viable reason to avoid a tile altogether, but I personally can't fathom being deterred from entering and/or rushing through a tile with chasms just because they could potentially cause Knockdown.

Lastly, I'd say the alternative idea of chasms causing a point of damage would be too powerful--no other Terrain does that. At least with the Fire effect from lava there's still a chance to remove the token before model activation with another Hero's ability or fortunate roll of a heart.

Great discussion! thumbsup
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Sig Ouden
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I agree with you totally. And a wound can be just as game-delaying as a knockdown effect.
Thematically, chasms should do much more than they do now, but I agree it should not be more dangerous than lava.

My new house rule for chasms (knockdown effect) includes Heroes, elites (multi-wound minions), mini-bosses and bosses. Because some Heroes have control abilities as well.
Mobs dumped into a chasm do not give loot. Because I do not think that makes sense.

I will playtest this. Any observations will be posted.
 
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Xris Wraith
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I like the knockdown approach. The other solution that popped up in SPM forum was "whenever a model is moved, pulled or pushed on a chasm square, it will lose a heart and reappear at the last square it was on.

should probably be "usable only once each turn" or "up to one heart each turn" or maybe "can't lose the last heart this way". Or instead: "and any movement ends immediately".

I have to admit that the knockdown approach, while less thematic is more elegant through using existing rules.

edit: btw easiest way for natural fliers to lose fly: Toadify! Those flying via equipment are safe
 
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