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Subject: 2.0 Rules: What is an Act, Chapter, Adventure, Quest, or Story?? rss

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Rob H
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I am new to Myth and trying to understand the rules per the downloadable 2.0 rules while my copy is in the mail. From my understanding:

Act= A single play session. It could be 1 or 1000 tiles. It's just one play session. Once you stop, loot is lost/ returned to loot decks, tokens reset, and status resets. The only exceptions/ persistence is if you killed a boss or otherwise had a title from this or another play session in which you keep a loot per. Also the treasure bag keeps its token ratios so adding green and blue tokens is good for later sessions. Darkness cards that refer to "this act" mean this however many of number of tiles during this one play session.

Chapter= A single tile playing a single quest card that is not linked. Everything resets at end of session as per "Act". Several chapters can be an "Act".

Adventure= A single tile playing per the populating icons. Everything resets at end of session as per "Act". Several Adventures or Chapters in whatever combination in a session is the "Act".

Quest= A chapter or linked quest. Everything ends at end of session even if you plan to pick up on another day for the follow up part of the linked chain later (really not sure about that). Thus the same resets as above apply for "end of session." Keep in mind that if a boss or quest awards a title then that and 1 loot may be retained. I am guessing you can still just freeze the game due to time restraints, but that includes things like status effects, health levels, hand status, etc.

Story= Um. Is this the same as linked quests? If not, how does it work? This seems to be the main source of titles and loot in Myth 1.0, but I am not sure what it is save the two online scenarios or future module content. How does Story mode work in 2.0? Where do you get the content for it (besides Fireborne and Revenant)?

Do I have this right? How do folks play Myth to get progression or have persistence in 2.0? I'm guessing you feed the treasure bag with Adventure and Chapter sessions until you can get good loot ratios in it to allow a good pull to then help push a subsequent session against Yardu or Thousand Legs?

Thanks for the help. I am looking forward to my copy.
 
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Marcus Taylor
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For the reasons you mentioned, this was very confusing.

In Myth 1.0, you had 'Act Quests' and 'Chapter Quests' and they didn't mesh well, being totally confusing both mechanically and narratively (why am I stopping to have a drinking contest when I'm running from hordes of monsters?).

So for Myth 2.0, they got rid of Act and Chapter quests, and now free-form just has 'Quests'.

There are apparently 2 (or 3 if you count Slaughterfield) modes of play now - the 'modules' (what used to be story quests) and free-form adventuring. You can swap between these two but not play them at the same time. Free-form gives you control over what you encounter, while the 'modules' have everything you need spelled out for you and you just set it up as described.

Apparently Slaughterfield is now a completely separate mode and doesn't interface with the Quests or modules at all.

It sounds much improved, but I can't tell you how it plays because I'm waiting for the proper Myth 2.0 cards to play it.

The progression and persistent elements in Myth still seem very weak compared to Shadows of Brimstone or Descent II. Apparently MCG didn't even want to have these, but felt compelled to chuck them in at the end, so they're neither very clear or very polished. Maybe Journeyman will come up with something better in this regard.



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Marcus the Ready wrote:
Apparently MCG didn't even want to have these, but felt compelled to chuck them in at the end.


Originally, there were no rules whatsoever for keeping items from session to session.

A single play session was intended to start with the brown items, and have the players gear up on their way through the session.

Players REALLY didn't like that, so they pretty much said 'Ok then, you can keep eq... one eq per.. oh, I don't know, one per title.'

Progression was intended to be purely based on card replacements (and maybe titles).

Things are better now that they are expanding the system to allow you to get card replacements and titles while free questing. The system is still a little loose, though. I'm 100% on board with the concept of free-questing during a session looking for a specific, loose goal. (kill 100 orcs in a session).

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Marcus Taylor
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That was my understanding too.

Unfortunately, it makes it hard to set a power level, or work out what modules are suitable for what kind of characters with which items.

It's not really possible to level-up in Myth, because of the wonky way it works, it's a Catch-22. You can't keep items without completing a Story Quest and its very hard to complete a Story Quest without the items and levels you need.

Other games like SoB or Descent do these elements better.

In fact, this was the very first thing I threw out when I was setting up my solo house rules. Pretty much any other game with persistent elements would allow you to do some free-form adventuring to get the items and powers you need to tackle the tougher scenarios.
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Rob H
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I am sort of more confused now. I do have the 2.0 content from their site, which is all I have for reference until my game arrives.

If there was no intended persistence, then how did folks have a reasonable chance at beating a boss especially one of the later ones like Rat King? I am even looking at the 2.0 cards for Yardu and he seems very tough with his abilities not to mention the heroes needing 2x 8+ in order to even hit him. This seems rather rough with starter gear plus a few random treasure bag draws. However, I have not sat down and actually played yet. Did they intend anything bigger than a captain to be "it's been fun, but let's go ahead and die here" type thing, or were they thinking folks would play 10 tiles in a row or something?

I can see modules the way they plan to go once journeyman hits, but what are we, what should I, be doing when I sit down with my 2.0 printed rules and a kS1 worth of stuff in the next week or so?

I know tone is invisible in text and there has been some waves about Myth. That is not me at all. I'm excited to finally get to mix the card play with the tactical dungeon crawl. I have been watching the game for a long time unsure if it was time to try it out yet. I'm giddy at this point watching tracking information and reading/ rereading rules. I just want to be doing it correctly in a way that I can fight more than crawlers and grubbers (since I have all this beautiful plastic coming).

I have Shadows of Brimestone. It's good. It has great (if unbalanced) persistence, but the combat is a bit dull at this point. Also large periods of time go by in it where nothing really happens or I am waiting for the inevitable to happen. I can list a bunch of other games too. They all have good and bad points. I know Myth is still growing. I want to enjoy the good, play it as correctly as possible, and just try to wrap my head around how I can properly utilize item decks and ability card adjustments in the confusing context of Acts, chapters, etc.

Even in the 2.0 rule book it feels like the these terms (Act, Adventure, etc) are thrown around a little loosely which is why I posted this. I further became confused as I pondered the implications of items always going away (except in content that doesn't really exist for another year) in a game that seems to be aimed at moving from progressively harder minions to bosses within the also progressing tiers of Novice to Master.
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chaplin717 wrote:
I am sort of more confused now. I do have the 2.0 content from their site, which is all I have for reference until my game arrives.

I've beat Yardu with 'lvl 1' heroes.

In terms of play, I think you're overestimating the number of treasure cards in the deck, and underestimating the number of draws you get. You should be getting quite a few treasure draws (3-4 per tile) on your way to the boss (3-4 tiles).

Add to that the quest rewards of pulling whites out in favor of blues (free quest) or the pre-built treasure bags, and you've got a good chance to be well geared up before fighting the boss.

Even better, if you're playing without keeping a bunch of items, each time you play through a scenario, it'll be with a unique set of items, which changes the way the heroes play.

TL/DR Remember that items is only 1/3 of the leveling trinity, which is items, cards, and treasure bag mods.
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chaplin717 wrote:

I further became confused as I pondered the implications of items always going away (except in content that doesn't really exist for another year) in a game that seems to be aimed at moving from progressively harder minions to bosses within the also progressing tiers of Novice to Master.


I personally hate the 'give all your toys back at the end of the adventure' nonsense, but that's just me.

But Myth objectively makes things hard by having different levels of Boss monsters and even minions (sycline and elementals are tougher than orcs or insects) and hints that modules are going to have difficulty levels too... but no real ways to measure this with the heroes. The persistent elements feel very grudging.

I guess we'll see if the Journeyman KS rules make things any clearer.

One of the main problems with Myth is that it's a collection of good ideas and GREAT minis, but the rules are frequently unclear and tend to feel like a vague afterthought. It's pretty much a 'do what you like' system that's not ideal for those who want very strict rules-as-written. It has the feel of an early 80's RPG where part of the fun was making stuff up as you go along. Which feels really odd for what is essentially a tactical minis combat game.

I have felt for a long time that enjoyment of Myth will require a lot of personal house rules. Personally I'm fine with that, but some people might not be.
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Granite26 wrote:

I've beat Yardu with 'lvl 1' heroes.


How about Orcneas or Terror?

I'm guessing that would be hard, even if you knew the system rules back to front, without a fair bit of luck. It would be interesting to see the % of victories of a brown-item group against a level 1 boss.
 
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MM
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Marcus the Ready wrote:
Granite26 wrote:

I've beat Yardu with 'lvl 1' heroes.


How about Orcneas or Terror?

I'm guessing that would be hard, even if you knew the system rules back to front, without a fair bit of luck. It would be interesting to see the % of victories of a brown-item group against a level 1 boss.


I don't think any Boss is meant to be faced by brown level novices. Below is from the rulebook.

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Fair enough, MM, but the only way to keep items was to do a Story Quest (in Myth 1.0) or beat a Boss in free-form (in Myth 2.0).

So if you can't beat a boss with the brown items... and all the Story Quests involved beating Boss...

That's my issue with Myth's garbled progression - how is it supposed to work?

I understand some people say SoB doesn't scale so well and the combats eventually get dull, but that's a scaling issue. You can clearly see how the characters advance and progress and how they level up and gain XP.

It's not so clear with Myth. This might be an issue, seeing as how the JM and subsequent KS are expressly defined as being higher tiers of play.
 
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Ryo Akashi

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Granite26 wrote:


Progression was intended to be purely based on card replacements (and maybe titles).



Progression also exist in improving the Item tokens in the drawstring bag. You have chance of drawing better items per session, if you do not get to retain any items.
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Tim Franklin
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Marcus the Ready wrote:
Fair enough, MM, but the only way to keep items was to do a Story Quest (in Myth 1.0) or beat a Boss in free-form (in Myth 2.0).

So if you can't beat a boss with the brown items... and all the Story Quests involved beating Boss...


2 of the 5 Story quests in the 1.0 rulebook don't end in a Boss fight, and one of the remainder has the possibility of an item-win instead of going the full fight.

Of the Kickstarter bonus stories, 3 are a "scripted" fight where the Boss shows up but you don't have to go toe-to-toe or there's some environmental trick to finishing him off, 4 are straight-up Boss fights, and 4 are some other conclusion.

I'm including in the "Boss" fights Slaughterfield scenarios that end with a Boss wave; I'm not including mini-Bosses or Agents, which should be easier to defeat.

Also, keep in mind that if you get to the conclusion of any of those stories with only brown items, you've done really, *really* badly for treasure along the way. Three Acts should be something like 30 or more treasure drops plus a merchant encounter or two...
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Ryo is dead on. You should be equipping up as you play. If you leave the first (non-trap) tile without at least 1 green, you're doing something wrong

-Edit:
To be clear, when I say lvl 1, we were playing the first story quest, and had drawn a few green items that way, as well as a few items off the first few tiles. He actually wiped us the first time we fought him
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Mathue Faulkner
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ryo_akashi wrote:
Granite26 wrote:


Progression was intended to be purely based on card replacements (and maybe titles).



Progression also exist in improving the Item tokens in the drawstring bag. You have chance of drawing better items per session, if you do not get to retain any items.

This.

And honestly, we felt like our Treasure Bag became too strong too quick. I limited kept Treasure to one item even with multiple titles because we were already too strong based on the Treasure Bag alone. If it were up to me, there wouldn't have been any Items saved in between. My wife wasn't down with that though.

That isn't to say that I liked the leveling in the base game. I think there needed to be more progression on both ends...enemy and hero. That's largely the reason that I created so many custom cards. I'm hoping Journeyman will fulfill that void, but I may go super custom if I'm not happy with the progression...
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MM
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Marcus the Ready wrote:
Fair enough, MM, but the only way to keep items was to do a Story Quest (in Myth 1.0) or beat a Boss in free-form (in Myth 2.0).

So if you can't beat a boss with the brown items... and all the Story Quests involved beating Boss...


Right. I think others have beat me to the answer, but to me, its all about the treasure bag. Repeated plays result in a seriously powerful draw. I'd also suggest putting a Boss on the very first tile isn't a wise decision for those titleless brown characters. If you have a sufficiently upgraded bag, but no titles, you should be able to take single skull bosses after 3-4 tiles. At least that's been my experience.

For anyone who's watched the MegaCon play videos you see the guys do exactly this (don't remember the exact number of tiles they played before facing Bones).

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Tim Franklin
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mfaulk80 wrote:
And honestly, we felt like our Treasure Bag became too strong too quick. I limited kept Treasure to one item even with multiple titles because we were already too strong based on the Treasure Bag alone. If it were up to me, there wouldn't have been any Items saved in between. My wife wasn't down with that though.


I'm inclined - although it's early days for me, so I haven't tried it yet - to reset the treasure bag after a successful Story. I think this was in a draft set of pre-2.0 rules at one point, but I could be mis-remembering. It feels like it should add a rhythm to the game - do some Adventuring to pump the treasure bag, when you think it's good enough, do a Story, grab yourselves one new title + item or a power-up card, rinse and repeat.
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tim-pelican wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
And honestly, we felt like our Treasure Bag became too strong too quick. I limited kept Treasure to one item even with multiple titles because we were already too strong based on the Treasure Bag alone. If it were up to me, there wouldn't have been any Items saved in between. My wife wasn't down with that though.


I'm inclined - although it's early days for me, so I haven't tried it yet - to reset the treasure bag after a successful Story. I think this was in a draft set of pre-2.0 rules at one point, but I could be mis-remembering. It feels like it should add a rhythm to the game - do some Adventuring to pump the treasure bag, when you think it's good enough, do a Story, grab yourselves one new title + item or a power-up card, rinse and repeat.


To some extent, that's how it plays in 2.0, only without the 'grind' of pumping it up. Modules have to starting out with a pre-built treasure bag.

Resetting it after a successful story sounds like a better solution for those of us that would like to play both modes, though.
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John
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Marcus the Ready wrote:
Fair enough, MM, but the only way to keep items was to do a Story Quest (in Myth 1.0) or beat a Boss in free-form (in Myth 2.0).

So if you can't beat a boss with the brown items... and all the Story Quests involved beating Boss...

That's my issue with Myth's garbled progression - how is it supposed to work?

I understand some people say SoB doesn't scale so well and the combats eventually get dull, but that's a scaling issue. You can clearly see how the characters advance and progress and how they level up and gain XP.

It's not so clear with Myth. This might be an issue, seeing as how the JM and subsequent KS are expressly defined as being higher tiers of play.


Won't we be getting titles from the modules? I thought they had a way to keep equipment.

I a, still wondering why there was no mention of the trade six serendipity to make a deck change in the 2.0 rulebook. I thought that was suppose to help the progression.
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whiskemuscles wrote:
I a, still wondering why there was no mention of the trade six serendipity to make a deck change in the 2.0 rulebook. I thought that was suppose to help the progression.


They actually did address this - it will be included in the JM rules since this is specifically for JM.
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Sorry if this is a silly question, but if customizing the hero deck is 1/3 of progression, how does one primarily do that, currently, in 2.0? Do you have to follow the Lucy Chain quest (or one of the others) to the end? Is that a "story"?

I am feeling reassured that it seems like a common debate that progression is murky currently. If upgrading the bag does get "too strong, too quick" I might go with the build the bag till I can keep a 'something' (hero card or item) then reset again and build up to a meaner boss. Does this seems feasible to others?

How about the other bosses? Can the Rat Boss, Cyclops Boss, or Fire Drake be taken down with a good treasure bag, one item held, and a customized deck?
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Mistermannindy wrote:
whiskemuscles wrote:
I a, still wondering why there was no mention of the trade six serendipity to make a deck change in the 2.0 rulebook. I thought that was suppose to help the progression.


They actually did address this - it will be included in the JM rules since this is specifically for JM.


Oh where did they say this? I haven't seen that yet.
 
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whiskemuscles wrote:
Mistermannindy wrote:
whiskemuscles wrote:
I a, still wondering why there was no mention of the trade six serendipity to make a deck change in the 2.0 rulebook. I thought that was suppose to help the progression.


They actually did address this - it will be included in the JM rules since this is specifically for JM.


Oh where did they say this? I haven't seen that yet.

Honestly I don't have a link. It was probably their site or a conversation I had with Kenny.
 
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Mistermannindy wrote:
whiskemuscles wrote:
Mistermannindy wrote:
whiskemuscles wrote:
I a, still wondering why there was no mention of the trade six serendipity to make a deck change in the 2.0 rulebook. I thought that was suppose to help the progression.


They actually did address this - it will be included in the JM rules since this is specifically for JM.


Oh where did they say this? I haven't seen that yet.

Honestly I don't have a link. It was probably their site or a conversation I had with Kenny.


Either way thank you. Not sure why it had to wait for JM but atleast it's coming.
 
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Yes, In Adventure mode you must defeat a boss to earn the manipulation of your deck and the gaining of a title.

This will be fleshed out a bit more in JM,.... right now; you have to chose to have a boss encounter at the end of your "Adventure" (this could be at the end of three "Act Sessions" or even after one,..... or potentially that scenario of just putting your guys on a tile with a boss and go.

In JM, there will be the interrogation of the Commander mechanic for revealing (or unlocking the ability to face off with) the Boss, but at this point you have scripted stories or boss fights as the way,...

Interestingly; the module content may be more potent,... Look at Fury of the Fireborn and Rise of the Revenant for example. These are letting you gain deck manipulation at each Act, and then a title at the end of the Story.


EDIT: I also agree with Granite26 - if you are not getting useful green items through draws or merchant purchases through the progress of three Act sessions,... you are doing something wrong. The Idea of Risk/Reward is built into how treasure drops are designed - the loitering penalty - and the "treasure turns to gold" penalty once you clear the tile. It adds a little bit of tension and strategy to how you fight,... when you spend MP to pick up treasure, etc.

By the time you've played nine or ten tiles; you should have come across quite a bit of stuff.
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js379 wrote:
just arbitrarily choose to fight a boss... man, that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


It's definitely something I am happy to see change in JM. The video series that the guys released last year ends with a Boss fight where they simply agree to fight Bones on a 12x12. Granted it was to show the mechanics, but I agree with you, Jason, it felt anticlimactic to me.


js379 wrote:
I really liked the more organic idea of deck manipulation through serendipity and I wish they hadn't chosen to relegate that to journeyman and above only... definitely going to house rule that.


Oh, I agree. As a matter of fact, I intend to incorporate ALL the rules into a single play experience. Since we're getting commanders for every race, I think it makes good sense to use the new JM rules for novice games too.

js379 wrote:
commanders unlocking the option to fight a boss is a great ideaa, provided they provide a good way to determine when you fight a commander.


I think this evolution came from community feedback. Not 100% sure on that, but I know the ability to "trigger" a boss fight was something frequently mentioned. It's a very good element to add.

js379 wrote:
3 deck manipulations from a single module sounds like a bit much but I guess we will see.


Right. It does feel pretty powerful, but we simply don't know. It is going to be very difficult to balance these modules given all the different combinations of heroes and hero experience. A 3 deck manipulation might be absolutely required for low powered heroes and make the module laughably easy for high powered groups.

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