Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
16 Posts

Mistfall» Forums » Rules

Subject: A few quick questions rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Steve Kozlowski
United States
Schererville
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I have two quick questions I'm hoping someone can help me with.

1.) When can you rest? On page 11 it says that at the start of the encounter phase if there is no active encounter, and the active location is safe, the heroes may rest. Then in the Encounter Aftermath section is says that the heroes may rest as part of that step if the location is safe. But then in the "Resting" section on the same page it again states that "at the beginning of the Encounter phase..."

So my question is, can the heroes rest during the Encounter Aftermath step or not? It says they can, but under the actual section that covers Resting, it only mentions being able to rest at the beginning of the Encounter Phase, which is what is confusing me.

2.) I also have a question regarding Embedded actions. When you play a card that allows you to resolve the action of another card, do you carry out every step of the resolved action? For instance, if I play a card that allows me to "resolve an action on a Dagger card", and part of that action says to discard the card, do I still discard the dagger?

I'm assuming you do, but I'm not sure I'm understanding the value of using these cards since you'll often be discarding two cards for one action. I can't recall the specific cards I was reading last night that made me question this (and I don't have my stuff in front of me right now), but there was one particular card that I'm pretty sure was a Regular action that allowed you to perform the action of a weapon card and didn't really even seem to modify the attack so I was confused as to the purpose. Or maybe I was just really tired and misread the card...lol
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
They call me Mister...
Ireland
Donegal
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

1. Yes.

Basically you can rest at the start of the Encounter Phase if there is no encounter active and the location is safe and clear of enemies.

Or, you can rest during the Encounter Aftermath if you have just finished the encounter that round and the location is safe and clear of enemies.


2. Yes, p13 "all effects are mandatory and must be applied, unless
the Action allows a player to choose only some of its effects (indicated by
the word “may”)
.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Clarke
Canada
Port Coquitlam
B.C.
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is a pet peeve of mine but I rarely raise it. However, for those of us trying to use the rules forums as a reference source, titles like, "a few quick questions" are useless.

Try specifying in the Subject header what you are asking as in: Rest and Embedded Actions.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pascal Van Vlaenderen
Belgium
Lissewege
Belgie
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Ibbo wrote:

1. Yes.

Basically you can rest at the start of the Encounter Phase if there is no encounter active and the location is safe and clear of enemies.

Or, you can rest during the Encounter Aftermath if you have just finished the encounter that round and the location is safe and clear of enemies.


I remember it as follows:
You can only rest once per round. Either when you just finished the encounter or when there's no encounter on the active location
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alejandro F
Spain
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Some cards that embbed actions, only add traits to such action. Adding a flame trait could do a world of difference.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gary Beason
United States
Carrollton
US
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ibbo wrote:

Basically you can rest at the start of the Encounter Phase if there is no encounter active and the location is safe and clear of enemies.

Or, you can rest during the Encounter Aftermath if you have just finished the encounter that round and the location is safe and clear of enemies.[/i].


I might be wrong, but you rest only once per round during the aftermath. I read the text under "No Encounter in Play" as where you check for the conditions to rest, not to actually rest (which occurs at #5 in the Aftermath). The conditions for aftermath resting are:

No Active Encounter AND no enemies in play AND no Location wounds--all at the start of the Encounter Phase.

Strictly reading the rules, I see it as you can't rest immediately after winning simply because you check for the rest conditions before you check for the Encounter end conditions. So, the Encounter would technically still be active.

Is that the intention? It seems a bit harsh IMO and means that the Party has to spend another round to rest.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
HitmanN
Finland
Uusikaupunki
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gbeason wrote:
I might be wrong, but you rest only once per round during the aftermath. I read the text under "No Encounter in Play" as where you check for the conditions to rest, not to actually rest (which occurs at #5 in the Aftermath). The conditions for aftermath resting are:

No Active Encounter AND no enemies in play AND no Location wounds--all at the start of the Encounter Phase.

Strictly reading the rules, I see it as you can't rest immediately after winning simply because you check for the rest conditions before you check for the Encounter end conditions. So, the Encounter would technically still be active.

Is that the intention? It seems a bit harsh IMO and means that the Party has to spend another round to rest.


I think you're contradicting yourself there. You say you can rest only during aftermath but not right after winning. See... Aftermath only happens when you win an encounter.

Notice the difference that in the fifth step of the Aftermath list the condition for resting doesn't require the active encounter to be over, while in the No Encounter In Play step it is a requirement. That's why resting is mentioned in both the Encounter Phase and the Encounter Aftermath. There would be no meaning otherwise to have resting mentioned twice, and with different conditions each time, if it didn't mean that to rest at each of those points had different requirements at the time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jerry Tresman
United Kingdom
Christchurch
Dorset
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
HitmanN wrote:

Notice the difference that in the fifth step of the Aftermath list the condition for resting doesn't require the active encounter to be over, while in the No Encounter In Play step it is a requirement. That's why resting is mentioned in both the Encounter Phase and the Encounter Aftermath. There would be no meaning otherwise to have resting mentioned twice, and with different conditions each time, if it didn't mean that to rest at each of those points had different requirements at the time.



There wouldn't be an active encounter if the location was already safe so the above comment is irrelevant.The only way to make a location safe is to remove a wound counter from it. If it only had one wound encounter e.g Perilous as opposed to two Overrun then meeting the encounter objective would remove the token and make it a safe location and the encounter would no longer be active.

Agreed it would be clearer if Discard Active Encounter was Step1 and not Step 7. but the encounter has ended before Encounter Aftermath.

Encounter Aftermath - Player Aid Card step 4 (Rest if Safe) and Rulebook Page 11 Step 5
Only rest if the Active Location is safe and no Enemies in play.

This is the same condition for resting when you are in a safe location and no other location has an active encounter.

Active Location Page 18 An encounter is active from the moment it is put into play. There can never be more than 1 at any time.

The wording of both sections means the same thing , one is for no active encounter at the start of the Encounter Phase (before encounter objective step) and the other is for when there is one but you have met its objective and made it safe.



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gary Beason
United States
Carrollton
US
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HitmanN wrote:
I think you're contradicting yourself there. You say you can rest only during aftermath but not right after winning. See... Aftermath only happens when you win an encounter.


No, I said "immediately after winning." In other words, as the rules are worded and ordered, you can't rest in the same round that you end an encounter because of the timing of the checks: You check for resting before you check for the end of Encounter.

Edit: To clarify, though it's hard to tell when the order of paragraphs is procedural or not, I think "No Encounter in Play" is procedurally ordered before "Encounter Objective Check." That's why the section ends with "Otherwise, proceed with the Encounter Objective Check." That sentence also matches the first sentence of "Resting" section.


That means to rest, you'd have stay at that same location another second (assuming it's Safe and has no enemies). And that means drawing another Time card.

I don't know if that is the intended design or not. If so, Resting is harsh, and you're going to have to be more selective about resting. You're probably not going to rest after every encounter, even if all the rest conditions are true.

I would like to see a specific step for the check for resting so that it's very clear where that is in relation to the "Encounter Objective Check" and "Encounter Aftermath" steps.

Personally, I think you should be able to rest in the same round that encounter ends, but I haven't played dozens of games and I'm not the designer.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Clarke
Canada
Port Coquitlam
B.C.
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gbeason wrote:
HitmanN wrote:
I think you're contradicting yourself there. You say you can rest only during aftermath but not right after winning. See... Aftermath only happens when you win an encounter.


No, I said "immediately after winning." In other words, as the rules are worded and ordered, you can't rest in the same round that you end an encounter


That's what I used to think too when I first read the rules but as was pointed out to me here, I'm pretty sure I was wrong.

From the rules:

Encounter Aftermath (page 11)

Bear in mind the Encounter Aftermath does NOT occur unless you meet the Encounter requirements ie: defeat all the Enemies.

#5 If the Active Location is Safe (there are no Wound tokens in the location tile) and no Enemies in play, Heroes may rest

#6
Discard the Active Encounter

#7
End the Encounter phase.

So in the Aftermath:

You Rest (#5) before discarding the Active Encounter #6).
That means the Encounter is active in the same turn in which you're resting.

Res ipsa loquitur.
_______________

Edit: The rule that confuses you is under Resting(page 11):

If at the start of the Encounter Phase, there is no Active Encounter in play, the Active Location is Safe, the Heroes may rest.

That's simply the rule when there has NOT been an Encounter.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jerry Tresman
United Kingdom
Christchurch
Dorset
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
gbeason wrote:
HitmanN wrote:
I think you're contradicting yourself there. You say you can rest only during aftermath but not right after winning. See... Aftermath only happens when you win an encounter.


No, I said "immediately after winning." In other words, as the rules are worded and ordered, you can't rest in the same round that you end an encounter because of the timing of the checks: You check for resting before you check for the end of Encounter.

Edit: To clarify, though it's hard to tell when the order of paragraphs is procedural or not, I think "No Encounter in Play" is procedurally ordered before "Encounter Objective Check." That's why the section ends with "Otherwise, proceed with the Encounter Objective Check." That sentence also matches the first sentence of "Resting" section.


That means to rest, you'd have stay at that same location another second (assuming it's Safe and has no enemies). And that means drawing another Time card.

I don't know if that is the intended design or not. If so, Resting is harsh, and you're going to have to be more selective about resting. You're probably not going to rest after every encounter, even if all the rest conditions are true.

I would like to see a specific step for the check for resting so that it's very clear where that is in relation to the "Encounter Objective Check" and "Encounter Aftermath" steps.

Personally, I think you should be able to rest in the same round that encounter ends, but I haven't played dozens of games and I'm not the designer.


Edit - I just realised you are thinking the active encounter ends when you meet the objective , it doesn't,it end in the encounter objective step, so is still active during the first step of the Encounter Phase so this phase is skipped and ypou go to the second step.

As I said the encounter aftermath is after encounter objective check, which is when the active encounter ends, you rest in the encounter aftermath,

As others have pointers out this is separate from the initial is there an active encounter check.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gary Beason
United States
Carrollton
US
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd like to be persuaded. But there's a difference between meeting the End conditions and discarding the Active Encounter card. You have to check the End conditions before you continue to the Aftermath.

In fact, this is more evidence that you cannot rest in the same round that you defeat an Encounter because the Active Encounter is removed afterwards. Step 5 on resting can't be read in isolation from either "Resting" or "No Encounter in Play."

Step 5 doesn't include "No Active Encounter in play" as stated in the other 2 sections. I'm not sure why it doesn't. But since that phrase is there in those 2 sections, I think it still applies and step 5 is not complete.

There's also the meaning of "No Active Encounter"--is it when the End conditions are met or specifically when there is no Encounter card on the table? (I could argue that the Encounter card is on the boad but not active because the End conditions are true.)

If I'm missing something here, I apologize. I want to understand what's intended. And I really do want to rest in the same round as ending an encounter because it seems logical.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gary Beason
United States
Carrollton
US
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here's what I see the rules saying:

1. Are Rest conditions true: No Active Encounter + 0 Wounds + 0 enemies.
2. Check End conditions for the encounter.
3. If End conditions are true, go to Encounter Aftermath.
4. If End conditions are false, end Encounter Phase.
5. Aftermath:

a. Disperse enemies.
b. Improve Location.
c. Draw rewards.
d. Take rewards or turn in for Resolve value.
e. If Step 1 was true, rest.
f. Discard Encounter card.
g. End Encounter phase.

Step 1 then appears to occur when the Encounter is still Active.

If folks say that the check for rest isn't at Step 1 but in the aftermath, then I'm not sure how that jibes with the order and wording of "No Encounter in Play."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Clarke
Canada
Port Coquitlam
B.C.
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gbeason wrote:
I'd like to be persuaded ... Step 5 on resting can't be read in isolation from either "Resting" or "No Encounter in Play."


I'm going to suggest they can be read in isolation because on this point, the rules are poorly worded and contradictory. When that happens four decades of gaming has taught me to err on the side of common sense.

As an aside, the fact we're having this discussion in a thread entitled: "A few quick questions" is unlikely to attract the attention of the designer, (or anyone else) for that matter. My earlier point.

Resting occurs, according to the rules, in the Encounter Aftermath which doesn't occur until after a successful Encounter.

Yet the rules under Resting say they occur if there is no active Encounter in play.

That's a contradiction.

Your take (which used to be mine as well)requires an interpretation that's both obtuse (not clearly stated) and completely counter-intuitive -- mental gymnastics I'm sure the rules writers never intended us to make when it could have been stated so much more clearly.

And in fact, it is stated clearly, it just seems to cover two different situations, in other words, poor wording, something that happens all the time which is why FAQ's are so often required.

Based on four decades of gaming experience, I find that the simplest explanation, is usually the right explanation, and what usually winds up in the FAQ, which in this case is to simply follow the steps in the Encounter Aftermath when you have an Encounter and Rest when you hit #5.

Only worry about the section under Resting when, as it says, there has been no Encounter. IE: yes you can also Rest when you start your turn in a Safe location.

I think that's all it means.

How can you start the phase with no Encounter, then Rest in its sub-phase the (Aftermath) when it no longer exists?



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gary Beason
United States
Carrollton
US
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mike,

I just saw your edit. The same wording is used in No Encounter in Play. A light's going off now for me.


My apologies for extending this conversation. I agree that the wording is contradictory, and it did feel counter-intuitive reading it strictly as I saw.

So, a quick summary of the Encounter phase:

If the round has no encounter:
Rest if No Active Encounter + 0 Wounds + 0 enemies

This is the purpose of No Encounter in Play section. The Resting section repeats this information.

If the round had encounter:
1. Check End conditions for the encounter.
2. If End conditions are true, go to Encounter Aftermath.
3. If End conditions are false, end Encounter Phase.
4. Aftermath:

a. Disperse enemies.
b. Improve Location.
c. Draw rewards.
d. Take rewards or turn in for Resolve value.
e. If 0 Wounds + 0 enemies, rest.
f. Discard Encounter card.
g. End Encounter phase.

You can rest only once in a round.

Does this sound right? If so, Resting needs to be rewritten.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
B. G. Kubacki
Poland
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gbeason wrote:
Mike,

So, a quick summary of the Encounter phase:

If the round has no encounter:
Rest if No Active Encounter + 0 Wounds + 0 enemies

This is the purpose of No Encounter in Play section. The Resting section repeats this information.

If the round had encounter:
1. Check End conditions for the encounter.
2. If End conditions are true, go to Encounter Aftermath.
3. If End conditions are false, end Encounter Phase.
4. Aftermath:

a. Disperse enemies.
b. Improve Location.
c. Draw rewards.
d. Take rewards or turn in for Resolve value.
e. If 0 Wounds + 0 enemies, rest.
f. Discard Encounter card.
g. End Encounter phase.

You can rest only once in a round.


This is absolutely correct. The normal instance of resting (when players decide to spend a whole round in a Location that is both Safe and empty) is independent from the special rest opportunity received during Encounter Aftermath (which overrides the "no Encounter" rule: the Location only needs to be Safe and empty). These two different rests will never happen during the same round.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.