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BattleCON: War of Indines» Forums » General

Subject: Beginners' tournament rss

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Xavier Lloyd
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Hey all,

I received my Kickstarter copy a couple weeks ago and have played only one real match so far. I figured it would be a good idea to set up a small tournament to introduce a few of my friends to the game. I have a few ideas and would love some feedback on the format and prize options.

The tournament would be for 4 to 6 players and be limited to the 6 flight 1 characters. It is slated for next week Thursday so I need some feedback ASAP!

Character Selection
Players draft a character that will be used for the entire tournament.

OR

Each player is randomly assigned a character

These feel like the same thing since no one would really know how the characters work.

Match Format
Round robin style where each player plays each other player best of 3
4 players => 2 matches at a time, 3 rounds of matches, ~1.5 hours duration
5 players => 2 matches at a time, 4 rounds of matches, ~2 hours duration
6 players => 3 matches at a time, 5 rounds of matches, ~2.5 hours duration

OR

Have a Swiss-style format where each player starts with a random starting rank. Characters are drafted each round starting with the lowest ranked person for the round. Matches would be best of one and we'd probably go for the number of players x 2 rounds.
4 players => 2 matches at a time, 8 rounds of matches, ~1.5 minutes duration
5 players => 2 matches at a time, 10 rounds of matches (highest rank sits out each round), ~2 hours duration
6 players => 3 matches at a time, 12 rounds of matches, ~2.5 hours duration

I am leaning towards the first option so they get a chance to get used to a certain character. I thought of the second one as a kind of handicap for those who take longer to catch on so they get a chance to either get used to a character or look around until they find someone comfortable.

Also, I figure that matches would take less time the further into the tournament it goes with the first option, while that might not be the case with the second option.

Prizes
No idea what to do here. My first thought is to ask each person to throw in a small amount of money to make up the pot then the winner takes all...but I just feel that's a bit tacky since it's a beginner's tournament and it'll be very informal. My other thought would be to see how much it'd cost to get a few medals or mini trophies made for first and second place.

My other thought is that I made a nice-ish PnP for Devastation. Participants could each draft a character.

Another thought was to get some Amazon gift cards...but that feels like the lazy way out.

Please let me know your thoughts because I really want this to happen. I really want this game to take off out here so this needs to be the best it can possibly be.

Thanks!
-Xavier

SIDE NOTE
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I will also be doing a tournament for a nice micro game called Soccer 17 that night. I'll almost certainly be doing round robin (since there are no differentiated team cards yet). I'll probably go with the medal/trophy idea and give the winner a PnP copy of the game. Any recommendations here will also be appreciated.

Soccer 17 has a little over a week left on Kickstarter and needs some more funding. I totally encourage any football/soccer fans to check it out. For $13 a pop with free international shipping, you can't miss. The gameplay actually feels a lot like BattleCON!

KS link - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/153035614/soccer-17?ref...
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Xavier Lloyd
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Re: Beginner's tournament
Anyone know if there's an easy way to get this on the Devastation forum too without duplicating the thread?
 
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Brad Rosenquist
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xlloyd wrote:
Anyone know if there's an easy way to get this on the Devastation forum too without duplicating the thread?


Don't feel bad about duplicating the thread. others do it for certain topics, and nobody in the community seems to frown on it.
 
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Jack S
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Format:

I'd say go with the Swiss format as it allows players to try out more characters, especially if they get stuck with one that they don't really like. This will also allow them to see more characters and get a better overall feel of the uniqueness that the game contains.

Prizes:

I think having everyone pitch in a small amount of money (say $5) raises the stakes just a little bit and makes them have a more vested interest in playing.

Second place gets their money back, First place takes the rest.
 
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Xavier Lloyd
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kurisenshi wrote:
Don't feel bad about duplicating the thread. others do it for certain topics, and nobody in the community seems to frown on it.


Decided to just make a short post with the link. Hopefully I can still get responses!

Stickdood wrote:
Format:

I'd say go with the Swiss format as it allows players to try out more characters, especially if they get stuck with one that they don't really like. This will also allow them to see more characters and get a better overall feel of the uniqueness that the game contains.

Prizes:

I think having everyone pitch in a small amount of money (say $5) raises the stakes just a little bit and makes them have a more vested interest in playing.

Second place gets their money back, First place takes the rest.


I'm worried about newbies having to relearn new characters and that time would just keep going. Now that I think of it though, the beauty of the Swiss format is that I can easily stop whenever I want to. That way I can set a time limit on the tourney instead of a round limit.

For the character selection, was thinking maybe I could include 2 flight 2 and 1 flight 3 characters so if they can try advanced mechanics if they feel up for it. That way the last person to pull doesn't get stuck with the last pick.

I'm thinking Rukyuk, Kehrolyn, and Khadath would be my best bets?

I really like that prize idea! I didn't think of the second place returns at all.
 
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Dom Hiob
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xlloyd wrote:

Match Format
Round robin style where each player plays each other player best of 3
4 players => 2 matches at a time, 3 rounds of matches, ~1.5 hours duration
5 players => 2 matches at a time, 4 rounds of matches, ~2 hours duration
6 players => 3 matches at a time, 5 rounds of matches, ~2.5 hours duration


notice this game for some players has quite some potential for AP. For first time players anyway, I'm not sure your time estimates will hold. I would expect the games to last much longer. Unless you set some kind of timer per beat. Then again, your players might not be AP-prone (or figure a very good move very quickly. Or -- worst -- they may just play random cards and miss the game).
 
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Dylan Thurston
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I'm a believer in a timer for tournaments for BattleCON. People talk about AP, but the thing is, this game REWARDS analysis. You really can do better if you spend 20 minutes per move. In a tournament setting, you should expect people to exploit that, so give them an external time limit to optimize around. In other settings, there's a social expectation to keep the game moving, but that kind of social expectation doesn't work in a tournament.
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Jared Voshall
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Depending what your budget is for the event, I'd go with a Playmat ($25) and a set of promo characters for everyone to choose from (both available from the Level 99 games store, though you'll need to ask for the promo characters). Or, you could grab one of their tournament packs, but that sounds like a lot more than you're looking for in this case.
 
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Adam Sutphen
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To speed things up, possibly put up a paper with some basic tactical information. Like list the magic #s somewhere everyone can see.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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dthurston wrote:
I'm a believer in a timer for tournaments for BattleCON. People talk about AP, but the thing is, this game REWARDS analysis. You really can do better if you spend 20 minutes per move. In a tournament setting, you should expect people to exploit that, so give them an external time limit to optimize around. In other settings, there's a social expectation to keep the game moving, but that kind of social expectation doesn't work in a tournament.


Alternatively, with a small newbie tournament you can just handle the timing simultaneously for everyone. "Okay, everyone... Reveal. Resolve reveal effects." "Now, Start of Beat effects." "Determine the Active Player, and check for his Before Activating effects."

Kind of like hosting Werewolf, I guess.
 
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Dom Hiob
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dthurston wrote:
People talk about AP, but the thing is, this game REWARDS analysis. You really can do better if you spend 20 minutes per move.


true -- that's why I put the line about missing the game with random play (or even playing the first thing that springs to mind and doesn't look too bad). There's a LOT of valuation and cross-valuation going on in BattleCON. +1 for timers.
 
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Xavier Lloyd
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Magius wrote:
Depending what your budget is for the event, I'd go with a Playmat ($25) and a set of promo characters for everyone to choose from (both available from the Level 99 games store, though you'll need to ask for the promo characters). Or, you could grab one of their tournament packs, but that sounds like a lot more than you're looking for in this case.

The issue for me is that since the players are new, I don't think they will be so amped to get things like playmats and pins. Bragging rights with a medal or something might be better. Also I wouldn't be able to get it in time so that's definitely a no go.

acefury wrote:
To speed things up, possibly put up a paper with some basic tactical information. Like list the magic #s somewhere everyone can see.

I like this idea. Will do this for sure!

lordrahvin wrote:

Alternatively, with a small newbie tournament you can just handle the timing simultaneously for everyone. "Okay, everyone... Reveal. Resolve reveal effects." "Now, Start of Beat effects." "Determine the Active Player, and check for his Before Activating effects."

Kind of like hosting Werewolf, I guess.

I like this idea but I want to be in the tournament as well so it'll be a bit difficult. Maybe I'll stick with the beat timer.

Question!
If a player hasn't chosen an attack pair to resolve, what should the penalty be? I don't think it's fair to let them resolve with no pair active. Maybe a life loss of two and players don't cycle? Anyone know what the official ruling is?

What is a good time limit for attack pair selection?
 
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Jared Voshall
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xlloyd wrote:

Magius wrote:
Depending what your budget is for the event, I'd go with a Playmat ($25) and a set of promo characters for everyone to choose from (both available from the Level 99 games store, though you'll need to ask for the promo characters). Or, you could grab one of their tournament packs, but that sounds like a lot more than you're looking for in this case.

The issue for me is that since the players are new, I don't think they will be so amped to get things like playmats and pins. Bragging rights with a medal or something might be better. Also I wouldn't be able to get it in time so that's definitely a no go.


Oh, I'm not suggesting you get the Pins, I'm talking about the actual non-boxed set promo characters (VG Gal Iri, Bruce Lee, etc) and one of the two player mats from the level 99 games store (if you need it fast, you can pay extra for same day shipping). While not everyone would be excited for a play mat (though, they really are quite gorgeous and well worth the money), I'm sure that most would appreciate the chance at a (somewhat) limited item like the promo characters.
 
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Xavier Lloyd
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Just checked the store and they're marked as out of stock!cry

The international shipping isn't so bad at just $7 since it's so small. To get it in time though I'd need to pay about $40 in shipping!
 
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Dylan Thurston
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xlloyd wrote:
If a player hasn't chosen an attack pair to resolve, what should the penalty be? I don't think it's fair to let them resolve with no pair active. Maybe a life loss of two and players don't cycle? Anyone know what the official ruling is?


There's no official rule on time limits, but I would have the opponent pick a pair randomly.

Quote:
What is a good time limit for attack pair selection?
Someone suggested 90 seconds.

Things will go more smoothly if you have people play at least a few practice beats before the actual tournament, I think.
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Adam Sutphen
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xlloyd wrote:

Question!
If a player hasn't chosen an attack pair to resolve, what should the penalty be? I don't think it's fair to let them resolve with no pair active. Maybe a life loss of two and players don't cycle? Anyone know what the official ruling is?

What is a good time limit for attack pair selection?


I think, if a player times out, they should be forced to play a random pair (excluding the special action card).

Magic#s:
Stun guard 3
Range 1-3
Power 4
Priority 6
 
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Andy Stout
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acefury wrote:

Magic#s:
Stun guard 3
Range 1-3
Power 4
Priority 6

Sorry, can someone explain these magic numbers?
 
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Xavier Lloyd
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acefury wrote:
xlloyd wrote:

Question!
If a player hasn't chosen an attack pair to resolve, what should the penalty be? I don't think it's fair to let them resolve with no pair active. Maybe a life loss of two and players don't cycle? Anyone know what the official ruling is?

What is a good time limit for attack pair selection?


I think, if a player times out, they should be forced to play a random pair (excluding the special action card).


The reason I don't like that idea is that it could end up in a better position for the person you are trying to punish. Imagine if Cadenza misses a clockwork shot because the opponent took too long to decide. If you planned specifically for a certain set of attacks the opponent will likely play, then something comes out of left field effectively wasting your attack.

That's why I think a life loss without resolving the beat is the best bet.
 
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Brad Rosenquist
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dragonstout wrote:

Sorry, can someone explain these magic numbers?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWuAGaM6P54
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Dylan Thurston
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I think that if a completely random strategy does better against you than a considered strategy, you're not doing very well. I also think that players will very quickly start making moves within the time limit.
 
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Dylan Thurston
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I'm curious how the tournament went!

In particular, how did the drafting go? That's one of the most crucial decisions in the tournament, and your beginners needed to make that decision right at the beginning.

(I started contemplating doing a similar tournament myself.)
 
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Xavier Lloyd
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It's actually this Thursday coming! I'm pretty nervous about the whole thing. I haven't even printed the magic numbers or ordered the medals yet. I'm such a delinquent when it comes to these things cry

Was also thinking about how to teach the game. Watch it Played has a really good video on it but maybe they'll get turned off by the length?
 
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Dylan Thurston
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xlloyd wrote:
Was also thinking about how to teach the game. Watch it Played has a really good video on it but maybe they'll get turned off by the length?
Other people have reported success with the Vanilla bases:
Red and Blue Vanilla characters

You might also consider restricting fighters to the first 2 or 3 flights. You really don't want beginners having to deal with Malandrax or Sagas.
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Xavier Lloyd
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It's actually going to be War not Devastation. There will be at most 6 participants so I'm thinking I'll allow all of Flight 1, Rukyuk and Kherolyn from Flight 2, and Khadath from flight 3. What you think?

The red and blue bases look great but I don't think we could use them for the whole tournament. Maybe everyone can play one or two duels with 10 life or 5 beats as an introduction or something.

EDIT: Misunderstood that those were supposed to be styles used by themselves without any bases or anything. Ignore that

Double edit: Boy aren't I confused? Misread Brad's post that you linked to. Regardless, I'll be using them to demo for sure. Thanks for the suggestion
 
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Alison Mandible
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For character choice, I would let people pick. If they're only picking based on the art, that's okay, they still get a character they feel some connection to. If after a match anybody wants to switch characters, they all put their characters back in the pool and get to pick again (least-winning record first).

(The game is hard enough to learn; playing a given character more than once is a very good idea. If people play fast enough for you to do a best-of-3 with each pairing that won't be as much of an issue, but like some other people, I am skeptical that there will be time for a whole best-of-3 unless you set a timer so severe that most people will be playing nearly at random anyway.)
 
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