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Subject: So since a certain someone will probably rss

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drive to my house and punch me in the face if I derail her thread.....
A lot of you say you are for planned parenthood and funding birth control publicly in the name of saving money in the long run.
Are you also in favor of stopping the influx of illegals in the name of saving money in the long run?>
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Mike Stiles
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TheDashi wrote:
drive to my house and punch me in the face if I derail her thread.....
A lot of you say you are for planned parenthood and funding birth control publicly in the name of saving money in the long run.
Are you also in favor of stopping the influx of illegals in the name of saving money in the long run?>


Because of course keeping people that, on a whole, just want to work is going to cost us money in the long run.
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windsagio wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
drive to my house and punch me in the face if I derail her thread.....
A lot of you say you are for planned parenthood and funding birth control publicly in the name of saving money in the long run.
Are you also in favor of stopping the influx of illegals in the name of saving money in the long run?>


Because of course keeping people that, on a whole, just want to work is going to cost us money in the long run.


Your claim is that all of these illegal immigrants just want to come and work?
Can you back this up?
 
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Mike Stiles
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Leaving aside your transition to 'all' there, do tell why you think people are in the country illegally?

 
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windsagio wrote:
Leaving aside your transition to 'all' there, do tell why you think people are in the country illegally?



Quote:
Somebody's doing the raping.
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William Boykin
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TheDashi wrote:
drive to my house and punch me in the face if I derail her thread.....
A lot of you say you are for planned parenthood and funding birth control publicly in the name of saving money in the long run.
Are you also in favor of stopping the influx of illegals in the name of saving money in the long run?>


Im on my phone at the moment, so its difficult for me to cut and paste links. But, there are many peer reviewed articles on the subject that argue that immigration, even so-called 'illegal' immigration, is a net benefit for our economy. Unskilled labor do jobs for less that help keep costs down for services like hotels and restaurants. Skilled immigrants help firms overcome crippling labor shortages. And both types of immigrants become entrepeneurs, creating businesses from taco trucks to tech combines.

The problem is that uncontrolled immigration hits border areas with costs that the rest of the nation doesnt. Extra policing, health and human services; these costs are pushed down onto already strapped city and county governments.

We need immigration reform in order to normalize and control people coming into the country. That way, we spend less law enforcement time on deporting someones granny, and more on closing el Chapos tunnels for drugs. But we must also recognize that much of our economic success is built upon our traditionally easy immigration. With declining birth rates in the Western world, immigration is our competitive edge against Europe.

Darilian
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Mike Stiles
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I wonder if this kind of blunt appeal to group loyalty actually works.
 
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David desJardins
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TheDashi wrote:
A lot of you say you are for planned parenthood and funding birth control publicly in the name of saving money in the long run.
Are you also in favor of stopping the influx of illegals in the name of saving money in the long run?>


Yes. Exactly.
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David desJardins
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Darilian wrote:
We need immigration reform in order to normalize and control people coming into the country. That way, we spend less law enforcement time on deporting someones granny, and more on closing el Chapos tunnels for drugs. But we must also recognize that much of our economic success is built upon our traditionally easy immigration. With declining birth rates in the Western world, immigration is our competitive edge against Europe.


Europe also has an unlimited supply of people who want to immigrate, who on average have more skills than illegal immigrants to the US. So I'm not sure exactly why that would be an advantage for the US (maybe just because Europe is culturally less able to absorb them?).

The X factor is that "traditionally" hardworking but unskilled and uneducated workers were extremely valuable, if you could put them in an environment that could use their skills. With global trends, they are worth a lot less today. So our policies have to adapt to that (or we have to pay the costs).
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windsagio wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
drive to my house and punch me in the face if I derail her thread.....
A lot of you say you are for planned parenthood and funding birth control publicly in the name of saving money in the long run.
Are you also in favor of stopping the influx of illegals in the name of saving money in the long run?>


Because of course keeping people that, on a whole, just want to work is going to cost us money in the long run.


The law is the law. The system could use work, but a nation has the right to protect its borders and illegal immigration is...illegal.

There will be no mass deportation, but the idea that wanting confront the problem is "racism" is unsatisfactory. And political heat without light.
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Jason Reid
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TheDashi wrote:
windsagio wrote:
[Because of course keeping people that, on a whole, just want to work is going to cost us money in the long run.


Your claim is that all of these illegal immigrants just want to come and work?


"On the whole" does not mean "all".
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Jason Reid
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tstone wrote:
The law is the law. The system could use work, but a nation has the right to protect its borders and illegal immigration is...illegal.

There will be no mass deportation, but the idea that wanting confront the problem is "racism" is unsatisfactory. And political heat without light.


What exactly is the "problem" that needs confronting? Simply that people flagrantly break the law by immigrating illegally? So what? People flagrantly speed when they're driving, too. Sometimes some of them are ticketed, sure, because the law is the law. But you don't hear about anybody talking about how "corrosive" it is that society largely ignores those laws.
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Ron Preisach
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jasonwocky wrote:
tstone wrote:
The law is the law. The system could use work, but a nation has the right to protect its borders and illegal immigration is...illegal.

There will be no mass deportation, but the idea that wanting confront the problem is "racism" is unsatisfactory. And political heat without light.


What exactly is the "problem" that needs confronting? Simply that people flagrantly break the law by immigrating illegally? So what? People flagrantly speed when they're driving, too. Sometimes some of them are ticketed, sure, because the law is the law. But you don't hear about anybody talking about how "corrosive" it is that society largely ignores those laws.


Velocitist!
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TheDashi wrote:

A lot of you say you are for planned parenthood and funding birth control publicly in the name of saving money in the long run.


I want to claify this, from my POV, it's not just that consideration, but I was riding that one because I know it appeals to conservative priorities. I don't think I could make a good case for PP and IUDs to many fiscal conservatives based on human costs. The whole "personal responsibility" angle often times is taken to unsympathetic levels that are hard to debate rationally.

Even though I think the fiscal benefit is awesome and is a great consequence, I think the benefits to society on the whole are the main selling points to me and even if the money was a wash or reasonably more expensive I'd be for PP/IUDs.

As for immigration, I agree with Dar.
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jasonwocky wrote:

What exactly is the "problem" that needs confronting? Simply that people flagrantly break the law by immigrating illegally? So what? People flagrantly speed when they're driving, too. Sometimes some of them are ticketed, sure, because the law is the law. But you don't hear about anybody talking about how "corrosive" it is that society largely ignores those laws.


Actually, we have had threads were I call speeders Attempted Manslaughterers. They are scum who take the lives of other people into their own hands for their own selfish and vain reasons. I don't want Sergeant She2, thread police, to cite me for thread derailment so I will leave it at that.
 
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As 'romantic' of an idea as a wall almost 2000 miles long may be, do we have any sort of information on how effective it would be? Wha5 k8nd 9f manpower would you need to effectively patrol it? How susceptable would it be to breaching? To circumventing? Is there any data on this from a moderately neutral source?
 
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Just wait til their food takes an hour at TGIF.

They'll be screaming for looser immigration.
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TheDashi wrote:
drive to my house and punch me in the face if I derail her thread.....
A lot of you say you are for planned parenthood and funding birth control publicly in the name of saving money in the long run.
Are you also in favor of stopping the influx of illegals in the name of saving money in the long run?>
I think I have repeatedly argued that this country cannot take any more people in.
 
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TheDashi wrote:
drive to my house and punch me in the face if I derail her thread.....
A lot of you say you are for planned parenthood and funding birth control publicly in the name of saving money in the long run.
Are you also in favor of stopping the influx of illegals in the name of saving money in the long run?>


I don't have a considered opinion on immigration, but I did want to point out that I am surprised at how bad RSP sometimes is at recognizing that arguing from a premise you believe someone else accepts to a conclusion you advocate doesn't mean you accept that premise. Indeed, the most considerate form of argument always takes as its starting point the premises your readers accept; it can never be founded in your own beliefs on which you disagree with the reader. Is that not obvious?
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TheChin! wrote:
jasonwocky wrote:

What exactly is the "problem" that needs confronting? Simply that people flagrantly break the law by immigrating illegally? So what? People flagrantly speed when they're driving, too. Sometimes some of them are ticketed, sure, because the law is the law. But you don't hear about anybody talking about how "corrosive" it is that society largely ignores those laws.


Actually, we have had threads were I call speeders Attempted Manslaughterers. They are scum who take the lives of other people into their own hands for their own selfish and vain reasons. I don't want Sergeant She2, thread police, to cite me for thread derailment so I will leave it at that.


I'll accept the fines, care to elaborate on that? It's what more interesting that whatever this thread is about. I also think it's clearly absurd since going 46 in a 45 qualifies as speeding and yet poses no greater inherent risk to anyone around you than going the limit. You can jack the value way up but at some point you're no longer talking about merely "speeding is reckless driving" and instead transition to the tautology of "reckless driving is reckless driving."

Or to speak your language, the antagonist here...



...is in a different category from the soccer mom that is running late and pushing 50.
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TheChin! wrote:
jasonwocky wrote:

What exactly is the "problem" that needs confronting? Simply that people flagrantly break the law by immigrating illegally? So what? People flagrantly speed when they're driving, too. Sometimes some of them are ticketed, sure, because the law is the law. But you don't hear about anybody talking about how "corrosive" it is that society largely ignores those laws.


Actually, we have had threads were I call speeders Attempted Manslaughterers. They are scum who take the lives of other people into their own hands for their own selfish and vain reasons. I don't want Sergeant She2, thread police, to cite me for thread derailment so I will leave it at that.


Maybe you dislike speeders, but as a society we don't discuss our "speeding problem" even though the country is rife with law-breakers. We largely accept the status quo of "lots of people speed, and some of them get caught and fined". I'd wager that there are more illegal speeders than there are illegal immigrants in the nation. And yet we seem to be collectively fine with that.

So again, this is all only to say, "The Law is the Law" is a pretty weak argument re: illegal immigration.
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TheDashi wrote:
drive to my house and punch me in the face if I derail her thread.....
A lot of you say you are for planned parenthood and funding birth control publicly in the name of saving money in the long run.
Are you also in favor of stopping the influx of illegals in the name of saving money in the long run?>


She won't punch you in the face.

She'll freeze your genitals then put a stiletto through your eye.

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jasonwocky wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
jasonwocky wrote:

What exactly is the "problem" that needs confronting? Simply that people flagrantly break the law by immigrating illegally? So what? People flagrantly speed when they're driving, too. Sometimes some of them are ticketed, sure, because the law is the law. But you don't hear about anybody talking about how "corrosive" it is that society largely ignores those laws.


Actually, we have had threads were I call speeders Attempted Manslaughterers. They are scum who take the lives of other people into their own hands for their own selfish and vain reasons. I don't want Sergeant She2, thread police, to cite me for thread derailment so I will leave it at that.


Maybe you dislike speeders, but as a society we don't discuss our "speeding problem" even though the country is rife with law-breakers. We largely accept the status quo of "lots of people speed, and some of them get caught and fined". I'd wager that there are more illegal speeders than there are illegal immigrants in the nation. And yet we seem to be collectively fine with that.

So again, this is all only to say, "The Law is the Law" is a pretty weak argument re: illegal immigration.


There's a position know as "legal realism" which essentially claims that the law is what is applied, not what is written. That always struck me as terminological imperialism, but the basic idea is that what governs our daily lives is the applied law, not the writing--the role of the written law is to give legitimacy to the behavior of our police and courts. Since we are generally willing to allow police, prosecutors, judges, and juries to exercise discretion and effectively under-enforce the written law*, a particularly strong argument is required to support this example of "the law is the law" reasoning. Shockingly enough, none has been offered.

* I actually think there's a really interesting thread to be had about the intersection of this discretion with anti-discrimination law, but I'm not yet at the point where I can even ask a coherent question on the topic.
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TheDashi wrote:
drive to my house and punch me in the face if I derail her thread.....
A lot of you say you are for planned parenthood and funding birth control publicly in the name of saving money in the long run.
Are you also in favor of stopping the influx of illegals in the name of saving money in the long run?>

Is it established that stopping illegal immigration will have a benefit to society?

On the one hand, it's obvious "illegal", so it must be bad. On the other hand, these people are living, working and spending money in the community, and establishing familial and community bonds. It's not a cut-and-try situation, and hard to quantify monetarily.

But let's assume that illegal immigration is a net detriment on society. What is the cost of stopping illegal immigration? Would this impose a detriment larger or smaller than the detriment currently experienced? If this can be answered we're left with a simple cost / benefit analysis.

In the end, it's foolish to spend dollars to save pennies.
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Darilian wrote:
immigration is our competitive edge against Europe.

Darilian


Wait.. I thought baseball was our competitive edge.
 
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