Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
28 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Terra Mystica» Forums » Strategy

Subject: The perfect Fakirs setup rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
I paid 100 Geek Gold so that you can read this! :-)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm currently running a small series of games which try to maximize the chance for Fakirs with these settings
- F&I map 1 (which seems the friendliest to yellow)
- with final scoring (distance and settlements seem best for Fakirs)
- no BON10 (not interesting for Fakirs)
- no expansion factions (just to keep complexity down)
- expansion town tiles enabled (TW7 is good for Fakirs)
- an explicit request not to pick Nomads (so as not to block Fakirs) or Darklings (so there's less natural competition for priests).
So far, all the brave players who picked Fakirs didn't win, as the setup is still mainly random.

So, what would you consider the perfect Fakirs setup for a 4p game with base game factions? I.e. on which map, with which final scoring (or none?), which sequence of scoring tiles, which available bonus tiles? Of course if a setup is also really great for some other faction, it's perfectness for Fakirs may be lower.

The perfect setup should be great regardless of the factions played by the other players - but of course any insights into which faction might hurt the Fakirs the most (and thus might make sense to exclude) is welcome (e.g. is my "no Darklings" rule indeed helpful?).

Here's my take:
- map: F&I map side 1
- final scoring: distance
- expansion town tiles available
- round scoring tiles: SPADE>>2, TOWN>>5, SA/SH>>5, D>>2(water), TP>>3(water), D>>2
- bonus tiles: BON1(spade,2c), BON2(cult,4c), BON3(6c), BON5(1w,3pw), BON7(TP*2,1w), BON8(priest), BON9(D*1,2c)

Please, make constructive proposals instead of just tearing apart somebody else's proposal.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Space Trucker
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bonus tiles strongly depend on your position in R1 - it hurts to get a bad tile in R1 so you want to be able to pick a good one in round 1.

BON6 should be a good tile for fakirs as you can do an easy double temple start with it which should be pretty strong.

Aditional scoring tiles might be good for fakirs (except when it's the border score) if you like that 'Kingdom Builder'-mode.

At least on the classic map I would not like to have Chaosmages in the game as they often advance shipping quickly and steal yellow hexes on the water.

A late D>>2VP is surely very good - I wouldn't focus too much on other bonuses.

I'm not so sure about the darklings - on the one hand the may take a priest you might need, on the other hand they often just build peacefully and often keep brown factions out that tend to steal yellow hexes.

Here's a game I played lately were fakirs scored very well (152):
http://terra.snellman.net/game/ST26
Fakirs effectivly only have blue as a peaceful neighbour (while darklings and haflings are killing each other in the east)

And here's the non-final scoring alltime best score (158):
http://terra.snellman.net/game/FriendlyGame1
Darklings are in the game, too, and all scoring tiles except D>>2 in R6 are changed. A (very important) similarity: Neighbours only in blue and green.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yvon Fripon
Gambia
msg tools
Since their income is quite crappy, I think fakirs need a lot of help from bonus tiles and cult rewards, aswell as some good leech. They are also vulnerable to getting key hexes stolen by their neigbours.
They usually will be a bit slower to get their first town and will very rarely get 3 towns
They will often upgrade their TP in TE and are not really interested in either their SH or SA (they would rather build 2 TE than a SA, since they want as many priests as possible).
They will also rarely have the opportunity to ACT6 in round 1, given their starting power, but can aim for a turn 2 ACT6.
Finally, since their race power can generate a lot of points, and can allow them to win end-game scoring like distance, they will prefer games where these points are more important, which means few end-of-turn scoring bonus tiles.


For these reasons, I think they probably don't want :
- early Town >> 5 scoring, and maybe they don't want any
- any SA/SH >> 5 scoring
- 3pw+1ship bonus
- 3pw+3vp/ship bonus
- 1w+2vp/TP bonus
- 2w+4vp/SA-SH bonus
- neighbours that compete for the same spots - I haven't played yellow races enough on the new map to identify these key hexes yet : there could be more red key hexes than brown key hexes, for instance, which would lead to Fakirs to having less competition against Engineers than against Darklings. Obviously, Giants, CM, Halflings and Cultists are really bad.

What they probably want is :
- "big income" tiles : 6C, 4C+cult, 1w+3pw, 1P, 2C+spade
- one late D >> 2 scoring (rd 5 or rd 6)
- early cult rewards (4 air >> 1 spade is probably the best fit for them)
- opponents that won't rush FAV11, so they have time to pick income tiles early and take FAV11 only once they have an economy
- TW7. They really need this since their SH is overly expensive.

I'd say the following setup is favorable to them, and I would definitely try them if I encountered this particular setup (for 4 players) :

- map: F&I map side 1
- final scoring : distance or clusters
- expansion town tiles available
- round scoring tiles:
1/ TP >> 3 (4 air > spade)
2/ spade >> 2
3/ D >> 2 (4 water > priest)
4/ Town >> 5
5/ TP >> 2 (water)
6/ D >> 2 (fire)

- bonus tiles:
BON1(spade,2c)
BON2(cult,4c)
BON3(6c)
BON5(1w,3pw)
BON8(priest)
BON9(D*1,2c)
BON4(SH/SA*4,2w)
6 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Andrew
Indonesia
Bandung
Jawa Barat
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hi Robert, i almost joined your game, if not for me already had almost too many games myself

i have only played fakirs twice, including one on snellman, so i dont know about which map is better for them

i agree that they need that extra final scoring, because fakirs can hardly gain VP from cults. distance and clusters looks great for them

for bonus tile i want both BON1 and BON8 in the game, and i dont want BON4 much more than i dont want BON10. i dont mind even if BON10 is in the game

D>>2 on R6 is very good. fakirs also need SH so SA/SH>>5 on R3/R4 is good, and TP>>2 before that looks ideal. definitely no SPADE>>2 on R4 because i dont want to play against halflings. much better if the cult scoring is from all 4 colors to prevent cult faction, namely chaosmagicians, being picked
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Helge Ostertag
Germany
Hofheim
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This game looks like a good example for a perfect Fakirs setup

http://terra.snellman.net/game/Mirror20
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tommy Ryytty
Finland
Vantaa
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You have pretty complex analysis :-) To make it simple, I have some key thoughts:

1) Neighbours. Fakirs are maybe most dependent of getting own yellow hexes. So pick fakirs in late positions (preferably last) when you can be sure that red and brown are not in game. If fakirs get most of yellow hexes they are in good shape. And vice versa if you have red and brown in game, you are dead.
2) Cluster scoring. Fakirs really love cluster scoring. Most of time it is easy win.
3) Cult bonuses. You don't really have to care much about cults, because fakirs use priest for their carpet flights. You can maybe look some suitable early game cult bonus and take most of it and then don't care others. Spade/Earth+1c is maybe best.
4) No town bonus or it is early. Fakirs need early game town for getting 4VP+1 carpet flight dist.

Petri/Xevoc has some good thought about choosing fakirs some older post, but too lazy to use search just now...
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
I paid 100 Geek Gold so that you can read this! :-)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The reason I preferred BON7 (TP*2,1w) over BON6 (SA/SH*4,2w) is that in order for a rd6 D>>2 dwelling spree, the Fakirs will need a) priests and b) dwellings available for placement. I.e. they will likely build plenty of TP in round 5/6 (more so when there's TP>>3 scoring in rd5) and could thus use the tile more than other factions (who'd be more interested in towns). Also any early-SH competitor faction may gain more VP from BON6 than the general public will gain from BON7.

What some of the linked games show nicely is how cluster/settlement scoring plays into the hands of Fakirs: not only is hex hopping their second nature (and good source of VP), it also makes the opponents scatter their dwellings around, thus forfeiting extra towns. The game linked by Helge (http://terra.snellman.net/game/Mirror20) is an especially good example: the Fakirs won both network and cluster scoring while the other players all spent a lot of effort to spread out too, but failed to get sufficient VP compensation for their efforts and sacrifices (Dwarves and Alchemists with just one town). Also the Mermaids in this game failed to expand - they should have been a serious contender but only got 3rd on network and 4th on clusters.

So cluster scoring is kind of a trap for the opponents who feel incentivized to spread out but against a successful Fakir will likely only fight for 2nd place.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Petri Savola
Finland
Espoo
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
When trying to find the perfect setup I would concentrate on 2 first turns to get a good start.

Turn 1: TP >> 3, 4 air >> spade
Turn 2: SA/SH >> 5, 2 air >> w
Turn 3: TOWN >> 5
Turn 4: D >> 2
Turn 5: TP >> 3
Turn 6: D >> 2

bon1 and bon6 must be in game. Pick Fakirs from p4 and take bon1, build temple and dwelling on turn 1. Hope that nobody takes act2 and take it on your first turn and send priest to air. Because you take act2, send priest and have bon1 you can do more actions than your opponents so you're likely to get bon6 for turn 2.

Then on turn 2, build 2 dwellings (1 from cult spade and 1 from carpet) and SA.

On turn 3, complete town which has already SA and 2 dwellings by building 1 dwelling and TP or 2 TP's, take tw7. Accumulate priests for the next round, possibly build a TE.

On turn 4, end turn with 7-8 dwellings, most of them come from carpet flight.

On turn 5, end turn with 4 TP's, 1 TE and 1 SA.

On turn 6, build the dwellings. End with area 14 and 2 towns.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gambia
Brest
msg tools
Avatar
On turn 1, do you rush temple or act2 ?
If fav11 is not taken yet, do you pick it?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Petri Savola
Finland
Espoo
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Skyswooper wrote:
On turn 1, do you rush temple or act2 ?
If fav11 is not taken yet, do you pick it?

As p4 you will not get fav11 if others rush for it. Get 1 leech from somebody and take act2 first. Pick fav9 or fav8 as first favor and then fav11 from 2nd turn SA if it's not taken and else fav10.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Space Trucker
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Skyswooper wrote:
On turn 1, do you rush temple or act2 ?
If fav11 is not taken yet, do you pick it?

As long as you can't be sure that no one will take act2 I'd surely take the priest first as not getting the spade would be more critical than not getting fav11. Same for sending the priest to air - if nobody else has a priest this can of course wait.
When fav11 is still available it should be a very good choice as building 14 structures means 24 points by fav11.
As Fakirs have a scoring engine of their own you can get a good score without a heavy focus on scoring tiles.
If there's no fav11 left I'd estimate that fav9 (fire1, 3 coins) should be a good choice, as it helps getting temples quickly (at least the same applies to Darklings).

edit: too slow...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Luke J
msg tools
I just decided to go for it and play my first Snellman game as Fakirs. No one has placed any dwellings yet, so we'll see how it goes.

Original map, mini-expansion.
I reckon it will be a low-scoring game, with these scoring tiles:
Rd 1: Town - 5
Rd 2: TE - 4
Rd 3: SA/SH - 5 (Fire)
Rd 4: D - 2 (Water)
Rd 5: D - 2 (Fire)
Rd 6: TP - 3

Bonuses 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9

When I picked, Swarmlings and Darklings had been chosen. With a low-scoring game, early earth cult spade, and potential black neighbor, I actually saw this as a good setup for Dwarves, but I'm a bit burned out on them. I TOTALLY expected the fourth player to take Dwarves, but they went with CMs (?). Which is actually pretty unfortunate because they might steal my yellow hexes. OTOH, with no gray or green, maybe they'll go after the gray ones instead?.

My view is that this is not a perfect setup, but it's reasonably good...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C TK
Canada
flag msg tools
ljwoodw wrote:
I just decided to go for it and play my first Snellman game as Fakirs. No one has placed any dwellings yet, so we'll see how it goes.

Original map, mini-expansion.
I reckon it will be a low-scoring game, with these scoring tiles:
Rd 1: Town - 5
Rd 2: TE - 4
Rd 3: SA/SH - 5 (Fire)
Rd 4: D - 2 (Water)
Rd 5: D - 2 (Fire)
Rd 6: TP - 3

Bonuses 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9

When I picked, Swarmlings and Darklings had been chosen. With a low-scoring game, early earth cult spade, and potential black neighbor, I actually saw this as a good setup for Dwarves, but I'm a bit burned out on them. I TOTALLY expected the fourth player to take Dwarves, but they went with CMs (?). Which is actually pretty unfortunate because they might steal my yellow hexes. OTOH, with no gray or green, maybe they'll go after the gray ones instead?.

My view is that this is not a perfect setup, but it's reasonably good...


I like it, save for the CMs. Hopefully they don't hurt you too much.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Per Olander
Denmark
flag msg tools
mbmb
ljwoodw wrote:
I just decided to go for it and play my first Snellman game as Fakirs. No one has placed any dwellings yet, so we'll see how it goes.


Fakirs aren't as bad as people make them, they just require situational setups.

They rock in 2-3 player games, especially choosing after green/blue is already taken, add. scoring helps them, so do both the new maps.

When you know how to play them, they can effectively boost your rating a lot, since a win with a poorly ranked faction is worth more than eg. a win with darklings - fakirs is the top booster of my rating with +86, and mermaids are worst with -35, since they are a quite highly ranked faction.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Luke J
msg tools
CTKShadow wrote:


I like it, save for the CMs. Hopefully they don't hurt you too much.

Well, so much for that. The CMs placed at E3, cutting me off from my town path/swarmlings leech. This after I left then a perfectly serviceable red hex at g2 from which they could leech and expand in peace...

This rapidly turned cutthroat. Maybe not bad since fakirs can fly away...

Updated to add: I won! 150 points, one town (+range), no stronghold, 32 points from faction, took FAV11 in round 1 and FAV9 in round 2, did just enough on cults to avoid getting beaten badly there.

But the Swarmlings dropped late in Round 5 and the Chaos Magicians made some early mistakes and ended up so far behind that they opted not to play Round 6. So not much to usefully glean from it, except that on a crowded board not set up for high scores, Fakirs can be pretty effective.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Kremer
msg tools
I've had two Fakirs victories lately against good competition (first one especially so) that I think demonstrate good setup for them:

http://terra.snellman.net/faction/mtl45/
http://terra.snellman.net/game/Anarchia13

Common to both games were the following, which I think are the basis of a good Fakirs setup:

1. 4th position
2. BON1 in the game
3. No red or brown
4. D >> 2 scoring in R5 and/or R6

I think the rest of BONs, scoring tiles, and factions can all be fine if properly prepared for. For examples, neither game had either of the two most favorable extra scoring tiles for Fakirs, but sa-sh tile just means you should go for SH instead of TW7. First game also shows that FAV11 is not necessary, and in the second game my most agonizing decision was whether to take FAV11 or FAV9 first.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loon
United States
flag msg tools
mb
Everyone seems to agree on one of the things critical to success with the fakirs is being fourth player. Why not seat three following black and grey? Is BON1 really that critical to get on the first round? Is fav9 that much better than fav11? (It is good though!) Is that true regardless of map? (Or are fakirs on the original map just so much of a lost cause that we should just focus on F&I side 1?)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Wolfpacker
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
jsnmthw wrote:
Everyone seems to agree on one of the things critical to success with the fakirs is being fourth player. Why not seat three following black and grey? Is BON1 really that critical to get on the first round? Is fav9 that much better than fav11? (It is good though!) Is that true regardless of map? (Or are fakirs on the original map just so much of a lost cause that we should just focus on F&I side 1?)


They are just fine on the F&I side 2 also.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C TK
Canada
flag msg tools
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
jsnmthw wrote:
Everyone seems to agree on one of the things critical to success with the fakirs is being fourth player. Why not seat three following black and grey? Is BON1 really that critical to get on the first round? Is fav9 that much better than fav11? (It is good though!) Is that true regardless of map? (Or are fakirs on the original map just so much of a lost cause that we should just focus on F&I side 1?)


They are just fine on the F&I side 2 also.


This doesn't seem to be supported by the stats on snellman. 4p, 1000+ winrate is about 2% without extra scoring and 10% with it
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Wolfpacker
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
I'm not surprised that the stats don't support it. Just because they can't play the faction, doesn't mean the faction isn't viable! How many +1000 games are played on side2 anyway?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
I paid 100 Geek Gold so that you can read this! :-)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
How many +1000 games are played on side2 anyway?
171 Fakir games out of ca. 1700 4p games with players rated 1000+ on side 2
Of these 145 (out of ca. 1400) were with expansion scoring.

So you think Fakirs only do bad because they are played by idiots more often than other factions? Well, that may be true - if only proven by the fact that those idiots picked Fakirs.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Per Olander
Denmark
flag msg tools
mbmb
DocCool wrote:
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
How many +1000 games are played on side2 anyway?
171 Fakir games out of ca. 1700 4p games with players rated 1000+ on side 2
Of these 145 (out of ca. 1400) were with expansion scoring.

So you think Fakirs only do bad because they are played by idiots more often than other factions? Well, that may be true - if only proven by the fact that those idiots picked Fakirs.


some are better than others with them, and its not the best faction to play as a rookie
I just looked through my fakir games, I am 17 of 23, but only one of them is 4p, a S13 league game I won, though with a dropout before initial dwelling placement - I really want to play more 4p with them, but they are a niche pick in 4p, and I think the statistics are influenced by that - people pick them out of desire to play and practice with them, so they dont always wait for the perfect setup.

but if anyone are up for it, I will gladly accept any 2p challenges, on either of the F&I boards, with the following conditions:

preferably a semi live game tonight, starting within an hour or two.
all "extra" enabled - towns, final scoring etc.
normal random map setup, random start player etc.
I choose fakirs for sure - you are allowed to choose any color, except red and brown - and of course yellow if you are player one
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
I paid 100 Geek Gold so that you can read this! :-)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I (and probably most other posters) were talking about 4p Fakirs, not 2p Fakirs - while Fakirs still are niche in 2p, their niche is much much wider and should have a decent chance in a relevant number of setups. Something which cannot be said about 4p games. Unless of course you're James.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Per Olander
Denmark
flag msg tools
mbmb
yeah, but I dont want to make a 4p fakir challenge, thats a bit too harsh maybe if I knew that noone would choose brown or red, I would be up for a 4p challenge anyway...

but I seem to do okay with them in our 4p shuffle challenge
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthias Reitberger
Germany
Nürnberg
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
When I look at my recent league game I would say Fakirs are nearly as good as Darklings devil
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.