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Commands & Colors: Napoleonics» Forums » General

Subject: Still not convinced by 5th ... rss

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Guillaume Gleize
France
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6th battle via Vassal using the 5th expansion ... Still not convinced and some of my partners too.

Only good point: Stronger Leaders (but even this point as a counterpart: time spending searching those leader here and there before the action thus slowing down the process before the attack).

Bad point: It really take much more brain (so time) to play. I know: Most of you will love that (so fed up to be in the minority lol) but personnaly I use to love the fast system of CCN.

Those two decks plus research for combos do not fit with the idea of a fast simple funny wargame I used to play.

I suppose the 6th expansion will introduce much more special rules and this and that ... I'm sad because what I really wanted were all those NEW SCENARIOS!

So now I ask online to the players if they agree to play the new scenarios with the "Old Deck" alone or the "New 75 Deck" alone WITHOUT the red Tactical Deck (TY Michael for letting us choose this option in the Vassal Module). Most agree because they don't want to spend all their neurones checking 10 cards combos in their hand at 23:00 after a hard day at work!

But I will buy the 5th and 6th expansion FOR THE SCENARIOS and will adapt to the old deck or a HOUSE EPIC RULE like we did with success in CCA.

PS1: I will use the Grand Battery and Garrison rules and new system.
PS2: I can change my mind. We say here: "Only the fools* never change their mind!" (*we use a much more rude word lol)


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Tanner Martin
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I’m only just getting into the basic game myself (I have the base game plus Austria, with Prussia & Russia on the way!), and I do have to agree that what attracted me to the C&C system was its relative simplicity and speed of play. My buddies are not grognards, and in graduate school there isn’t much time for gaming; we’re looking for something fast and light for the evening after study. We like short games. If the new system significantly increases playing time, we will probably mostly be sticking with the old deck as well.

That said, I have ordered the new expansion and I’m looking forward to trying it out!
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Martin S
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I know The Great War plays really well with a second deck (Combat Cards similar to Tacticians?) and the game doesn't play too much longer. And TGW only has three unit types on the board.
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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Going by past experience with BattleLore and, most recently, with The Great War, I like having a "second deck" and hand of cards to put an additional spin on the play of a Command card.

But I appreciate, too, that they may not be to everyone's taste (or perhaps even necessary) for a variety of reasons: added complexity; added time to play; "swingy" effects; "different" without necessarily being "better"; etc.
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Guillaume Gleize
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TY for your witness guys.

To be said:

1) On the other hand I can admit that the red tactical deck may accelerate the battles themselve while breaking many standing situations. Many red card create surprises and make the situation on the board together with the Victory points change faster. But does this makes up for the longer time the players will use to brain storm and choose their cards ... I'm not sure.

2) I also agree that if I only use the old deck I will sadly miss the new strength give to the leaders by the new decks. So I could use the new 75 deck alone but then I will loose all the first strikes and will have to explain and forget all the "draw a new tactical card" written at the end of some etc ... However I have to print new French translated cards so the best solution may be to use the old deck just adding the 6 new "Take Command" cards ... He! He! ...



What a great game however ...



 
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Mark McG
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GGleize wrote:

So now I ask online to the players if they agree to play the new scenarios with the "Old Deck" alone or the "New 75 Deck" alone WITHOUT the red Tactical Deck (TY Michael for letting us choose this option in the Vassal Module). Most agree because they don't want to spend all their neurones checking 10 cards combos in their hand at 23:00 after a hard day at work!


I'm not sure the New 75 Deck alone adequately replaces the Old Deck.
What about First Strike for example?
 
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Richard Borg
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To my knowledge the Generals, Marshals and Tactician expansion for Commands & Colors Napoleonics is not out yet.

Perhaps we should hold back on making a judgement on how the cards interact and time they add to play, until we have the opportunity to use them face to face. Perhaps the Vassal Module is creating some of the concerns, I cannot say, I have not had the opportunity to enjoy Commands & Colors games using Vassal.

In the end, I personally feel that the Generals, Marshals and Tactician expansion will add more depth to the game, introduce some new and exciting tactical chances, and bolster the effectiveness of leaders.

Thanks again for your support.
Richard Borg
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Michael Dippel
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Quote:
Bad point: It really take much more brain (so time) to play. I know: Most of you will love that (so fed up to be in the minority lol) but personnaly I use to love the fast system of CCN.


I playing now since 12 years CC games and did the experience, that players,
who play fast with the base games, do the same with additional "TC" cards.
Players who need already a lot of time with base games/cards because of different reasons (don´t want annoy anyone here whistle),
need also a long time (general much more time) with additonal TC´s,
so the problem are not the additional rules/TC

I rember a few years ago, as i still played BL (1stE) in online tournaments.
There we had a couple of players, who played BL only a few times and also on Vassal only in tournaments (maybes 2-3 games before to test).
The result was, such players needed a lot of time because of bad game rules knowledge and bad knowledge of Vassal, they must "learn" both mechanism each game again new.
They also complained the game and/or Vassal is to slow.

But on Vassal you dont need time to setup games as in live games and
if you know the game rules and the easy vassal mechanism, then the games should be faster as in live games!

So my opinion again, it´s not a problem of Vassal and/or game rules, if you play slow.
It´s a fast game (and on Vassal faster), but this requires that the players knows the rules of the game and Vassal in an appropriate skill level!

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Steve Duke
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My first play of the playtest kit is posted in the Generals, Marshals and Tacticians folder.

Bottom line, I really liked it. I think it adds a lot of flavor to the game.

The tactics cards, aka the 'dirty tricks deck', certainly keeps you light on your feet with even more uncertainty as to how a combat will turn out than the game already has.

Some folks will like that uncertainty, I'm sure others who want more 'control' or 'predictability' may not.

If you play with people who have AP issues, I would guess that the extra deck will make things slow down even more.

I found the speed of play improved from the first game to the second, as you learn what the options are and you can more quickly recognize the tactics cards along with the modified command cards.

After years of playing with the command deck as it was, yes, there is a bit of learning associated with the new deck.

But after hearing complaints for years about why leaders are not very useful for other than banners, here is a game that clearly rewards your leadership placement and puts them at the front of the battlefield in order to benefit from the cards.

I particularly like that aspect of the game. Leaders up front, influencing the battle. Kind of like it should be.

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Guillaume Gleize
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To Mr Borg & Steven: TY to take interest in my post. Those posts are only true feelings written as a base of exchanges.
My last sentences in the posts may be the key: - "I may change my mind & What a great game" ...

To Michael: Come on! We play together from years now and you still speak to me like to an enemy alien: Fed up with that.

GG
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Jon Snow
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arrrh Having played BC150 repeatedly now with Michael's CCN Leadership Mods (two new command decks) and my ACW Leadership ratings (see that game's discussion board), I can say that after a very short learning curve, it all comes very naturally and simply. With a few games under your belt, you hardly realize the difference.

whistle Who's this "Richard Borg" guy? What makes him think he knows anything about it?
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Guillaume Gleize
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Haaa? A buddie of mine did found the 5th expansion "easy & fun" from the very start ... So here is a first witness on your side

A light in my tunnel?

ninja

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Minot
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I am definitely going to get the 5th expansion for the new scenarios and such. Whether I will use the new decks remains to be seen. After my initial play through of TGW, I really did not like the second deck, but that game system is starting to grow on me. Maybe the second deck in CCN will as well.
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Richard Borg
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Fun Stuff all!

Great to hear a number of different views. What all these cards are really setting us all up for, is how La Grande Battles (or what commonly is being called Epic Napoleonics) is the fact that it will integrate and shine when we are going to play a multi-player game of Commands & Colors Napoleonics.

Thanks for your comments.
Richard Borg
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Guillaume Gleize
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As I said:

GGleize wrote:

But I will buy the 5th and 6th expansion ...


Just did it: Exp #5 ORDERED!

Next steps:
- Not to miss the USP delivery
- To translate the cards
- To print them
- To protect them
- To test it with my most experimented buddy
...
- To write down here new critics just to tease you all

(Mr Borg and some very few may have understood that someone spending years critizing a game ... Is nothing less than A BIG FAN OF THIS GAME!)

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Martin S
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richard borg wrote:
when we are going to play a multi-player game of Commands & Colors Napoleonics.

Richard Borg


We're all counting the days Richard!
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