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No Retreat! The Russian Front» Forums » Rules

Subject: A general No Retreat! question about CA and CB rss

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Chris Clarke
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Counterblows have constantly been something hard for me to grok.

I definitely understand how they work but I'd like a bit more explanation to make it stick.

For example, can someone explain, thematically and mechanically, why a CA is a "worse" result than a CB? I have my own thoughts on the subject but I'd like to hear how others answer first...
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tom tom
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I'd say the big difference is that the CA has to be conducted immediately while the CB will occur during the other player's turn, if he still has units next to your CB.
A lot of things can happen in the meantime.

I think the CA depicts a big fail during an attack, whil the CB depicts the battle isn't settled and your unit is still giving trouble to the other player.
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Chris Clarke
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But doesn't that make a CB worse? I mean, a CA means the defender has to make a decision right now. A CB means on HIS turn he could move more forces in and THEN resolve the attack. "A lot of things can happen in the meantime" is good for the defender, not the attacker. Thus it seems to me that a CA is a better result than a CB for the attacker. Or...maybe not?
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Ferro Ostil
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Have you considered the impact of terrain modifiers in your analysis?
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Chris Clarke
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Attacker X Defender Y

X attacks Y. Receives CA result. Y has choice to immediately CA X with no Terrain Modifiers or end combat.

or

X attacks Y. Receives CB result. Y has choice to "CA" X next turn with no Terrain Modifiers or move away with no combat.

CA or CB there are no Terrain modifiers, so I don't think there is an impact. Unless I'm misinterpreting something.



I can't imagine wanting a CB more than I want a CA as I roll the dice. "Whew, it could've been a counter attack but at least it's just a counterblow." The riposte is coming whether you like it or not. There's nothing you can do about it as your turn is over after combat.

I never really thought about it.

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Chris Clarke
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If I look at it from the other perspective though...

As a defender, do I want CA or CB as a result?

If I'm in bad shape I guess I'd want the CA so I could just end the attack as a no result. A CB would mean the only way I could stop our forces engaging would be to move away on my turn.

When I look at it that way it makes sense...

Actually, I'd probably also want the CA because...well...let's say I had an awesome CA possibility. I'd rather CA NOW so that on my turn I could take advantage of the hole that was created.

If my opponent rolls a CB then, sure, I get to "CA" on my turn but I CANNOT advance after combat into that hex. Hmm....
 
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Carl Paradis
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Don't forget that in a CA the other side gets to attack you on your turn, THEN can attack again in his turn. Not so with a CB. Plus ot all depends on the odds situations too, you have more CA results in low odds attacks, and some of these might be the result of the opponent using CB markers in your turn to force a CA results.

In the other games in the series you have a CR result. it is a mandatory counterattack. either you counterattack or have to retreat. You even have some CR+EX results, combining a CR with an EX. meeple
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Chris Clarke
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licinius wrote:
Don't forget that in a CA the other side gets to attack you on your turn, THEN can attack again in his turn. Not so with a CB.


Yeah, I just realized that in my previous post...that is big.

licinius wrote:
Plus ot all depends on the odds situations too, you have more CA results in low odds attacks, and some of these might be the result of the opponent using CB markers in your turn to force a CA results.


Ah yes. I think what you're saying is because of counterblow markers, you can force your opponent into a situation where he has to attack at low odds...thus, the worst thing he could roll is a CA because that's exactly what you want: an attack on his own turn...granted you can't advance after combat...

licinius wrote:
In the other games in the series you have a CR result. it is a mandatory counterattack. either you counterattack or have to retreat. You even have some CR+EX results, combining a CR with an EX. meeple


CR seems like the worst thing. In the charts for North Africa it looks like it's treated as better than CA and CB...

Wait a second.

Carl, there's no DRM's in No Retreat! are there?

It's just column shifts. So therefore results are purely a d6 and random...there is no "better" or "worse" result on any individual chart...
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Carl Paradis
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aram12 wrote:

CR seems like the worst thing. In the charts for North Africa it looks like it's treated as better than CA and CB...

Wait a second.

Carl, there's no DRM's in No Retreat! are there?

It's just column shifts. So therefore results are purely a d6 and random...there is no "better" or "worse" result on any individual chart...


Dammit, you denied me the pleasure of answering exactly that.

CR is BETTER for the attacker than a CA, IMHO, as it denies a choice to the defender to attack or not.

There are indeed no better/worse results as there are no die modifiers (I dislike die modifiers and will never use this ploy in my games if I can help it). I organized the combat results in a "low is bad, high is good order" in general, but also for also of reference across the whole table.
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Chris Clarke
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I got confused again. Yes indeed, the CR result is obviously better than CB because the defender essentially has the same choice as the CB result but has to make the choice NOW as opposed to next turn. It's almost a DW (that's the 1 hex retreat, right? Don't have my rules in front of me), but not quite. Fascinating.


 
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