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Subject: RSP Hearthstone Tournament #5 - Odd Couple Edition rss

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Well, it's been over a month since the last tournament ended and now that we've all waited patiently for the expansion to drop I think it's about time for the next. I'm basing the format on the results of the exit poll for the last thread... by choosing the second most popular option since the first option was basically doing the same gimmick again but slightly differently. Maybe next time? Before we get into that though we need to hash out start time and since, as per the other poll, all TGT cards are going to be legal I figure we should put up a vote to see how long we need to wait for everyone to acquire a comfortable amount of new stuff:

Cease voting, the people have spoken. We will start on 9/11. Get your "Bush did it" rhetoric ready.

Poll
When would you like to start?
One week, Friday 9/4
Two weeks, Friday 9/11
9/11 but we have to have a debate about 9/11 as part of the submission process
      8 answers
Poll created by The Message


Ok, so we'll let that hash out the start date. What is actually starting on that day though?

Dual tribe shenanigans!

Rules:

1) Decks must follow two deck-building guidelines:

- They must contain at least nine cards each from two different tribes, for example nine merlocs and nine mechs. Clarifications on what exactly constitutes a tribe for the purposes of the tournament are at the end of this point. Even if you think you know what fits please go read that, the definition has been twisted to include some nonstandard keyword tribes.

- They may not contain any cards from tribes other than the two selected.

2) Each player must submit two decks before the start date, they must be for different classes and cannot share tribes (so you will need a total of four different tribes) You may either geekmail them to me or post them in the thread if you don't mind people being able to peek early, either way be sure to note which two tribes you chose for each deck. I'll consolidate all of the lists to a single post below this one when the tournament starts just like last time. Since someone always asks everyone is eligible to enter, all you need is a BGG account and the ability to follow the submission rules. You don't need to be a part of our established clique to participate.

3) Everybody will face everybody else, just like always. Like last time it will be a best-3-of-5. You can choose either of your decks for each individual game, the only quirk is that each of your decks has to win at least once. I think the "decks can lose up to twice" idea made for quality matches but added just slightly too many memory issues when things like crashes and real life split matches into two parts.

4) The top four will go to the semi-finals where they will all play each other the same way but as best-4-of-7. The top two there will face each other in the finals and the other two will fight over third place.

5) Prize pool is 10 GG for first, 5 for second and 3 for third. Any tips this post receives will be added to the pool and split at roughly that ratio.

That's basically it. If you have any comments or concerns feel free to post them here as usual, it's not too late to adjust the rules if enough people want it. Also please say if you're going to be in sooner rather than later so that we don't accidentally start without you if your submission is slightly late.



What is a tribe?


For the purposes of this tournament a tribe will be defined as the cards that share a subtype and the cards that interact with them specifically. This includes:

- Anything with a printed subtype is self-explanatory. A card with murloc at the bottom fits the murloc tribe, a card with dragon at the bottom fits the dragon tribe.

- Anything that creates a minion of the subtype falls into that tribe. Dr. Boom is part of the mech tribe, Animal Companion is part of the beast tribe.

- The druid cards that immediately transform into beasts are beasts. By the same token Jaraxxus is a demon even though he isn't normally played as a minion.

- Anything that has the subtype somewhere within its text box falls into that tribe. Demonfuse is demon tribe, Blackwing Corruptor is dragon tribe. Yes, this does mean Light's Champion is part of the demon tribe and Hemet is part of the beast tribe.
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Space reserved for official tournament business.

Scoreboard:

Byrdru 5
Terwox 5
The Message 5
BimmyJim 4
Laputian 3
Thrift Thopter 2
GameCrossing 2
Spoon 2
Mich Media 1



Matches Remaining:

The Message vs Spoon
Bimmy Jim vs Mich Media
Bimmy Jim vs Terwox
Bimmy Jim vs Spoon
Mich Media vs Spoon
Terwox vs Byrdru
Byrdru vs Spoon


Competitors:

The Message

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Totemech Shaman:

Lightning Bolt x 2
Crackle x 2
Annoy-o-tron x 2
Flametongue Totem x 2
Mechwarper x 2
Totem Golem x 2
Zap-o-matic x 2
Power Mace x 2
Hex
Lightning Storm x 2
Tuskarr Totemic x 2
Dranei Totemcarver x 2
Fireguard Destroyer x 2
Piloted Shredder x 2
Bloodlust
Thunder Bluff Valiant
Fire Elemental

Cleric of Dragon Beasts:

Power Word: Shield x 2
Hungry Crab x 2
Northshire Cleric
Shadow Word: Pain x 2
Haunted Creeper
Wyrmrest Agent x 2
Shadow Word: Death
Ironfur Grizzly x 2
Jungle Panther
Shadow Madness x 2
Twilight Drake
Twilight Guardian x 2
Azure Drake x 2
Blackwing Corrupter x 2
Lightbomb
Cabal Shadow Priest
Captured Jormungar x 2
Alexstrasza
Nefarian


Laputian

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Shaman Murloc Mech

cogmaster x2
hungry crab
murloc tidecaller x2
annoy o tron x2
bluegill warrior x2
mechwarper x2
murloc tidehunter x2
zap o matic x2
powermace x2
coldlight seer x2
harvest golem x2
murloc warleader x2
old murk eye
piloted shredder x2
siltfin spiritwalker
bloodlust
the mistcaller
neptulon


Druid Beast Dragon

Innervate x2
haunted creeper x2
savage roar x2
blackwing technician x2
swipe x2
keeper of the grove x2
Savage combatant x2
twilight guardian x2
blackwing corruptor x2
druid of the fang x2
mukla's champion x2
force of nature
ancient of lore x2
Chillmaw
Chomomagus
Nefarian
Onyx
Ysera


Thrift Thopter

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Mechs & Murlocs (Shaman)
2 Hungry Crab
2 Annoy-o-Tron
2 Bluegill Warrior
2 Mechwarper
2 Murloc Tidehunter
2 Whirling Zap-o-matic
2 Hex
2 Lightning Storm
2 Coldlight Seer
2 Harvest Golem
2 Murloc Warleader
2 Arcane Nullifier X-21
1 Old Murk-Eye
2 Piloted Shredder
2 Bloodlust
1 Neptulon

(Beasts)Druids & Dragons
2 Innervate
2 Hungry Crab
2 Wild Growth
2 Druid of the Saber
2 Mulch
2 Blackwing Technician
2 Druid of the Flame
2 Mind Control Tech
2 Hungry Dragon
1 Twilight Drake
2 Starfall
2 Blackwing Corruptor
2 Druid of the Claw
2 Druid of the Fang
1 Chromaggus
1 Nefarian
1 Ysera


BimmyJim

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Deck 1: RSP Warlock (Demon + Beast)

2x Power Overwhelming
2x Abusive Sergeant
1x Flame Imp
1x Hungry Crab
2x Voidwalker
2x Dire Wolf Alpha
2x Haunted Creeper
2x Ironbeak Owl
2x Knife Juggler
2x Nerubian Egg
2x Imp Gang Boss
1x Imp-losion
2x Defender of Argus
2x Voidcaller
2x Doomguard
2x Stampeding Kodo
1x Mal'Ganis

Deck 2: RSP Priest (Dragon + Mech)

2x Power Word: Shield
2x Northshire Cleric
2x Twilight Whelp
2x Annoy-o-Tron
2x Shadowboxer
2x Wyrmrest Agent
2x Shadow Word: Death
1x Dark Cultist
2x Piloted Shredder
2x Twilight Guardian
1x Holy Nova
1x Antique Healbot
1x Azure Drake
1x Loatheb
1x Upgraded Repair Bot
1x Emperor Thaurissan
1x Chillmaw
1x Confessor Paletress
1x Dr. Boom
1x Ragnaros the Firelord
1x Ysera


GameCrossing

Spoiler (click to reveal)
HETERODYNE (Rogue)

Buccaneer x2
Southsea Deckhand x2
Annoy-o-Tron x2
Bloodsail Raider x2
Goblin Auto-Barber x2
One-Eyed Cheat
Ship's Cannon x2
Iron Sensei x2
Shady Dealer x2
Southsea Captain x2
Tinkertown Technician
Dread Corsair x2
Mechanical Yeti x2
Piloted Shredder x2
Antique Healbot
Salty Dog
Gazlowe
Mekgineer Thermaplugg


THE WATER BABIES (Paladin)
Grimscale Oracle x2
Murloc Raider x2
Murloc Tidecaller x2
Bluegill Warrior x2
Murloc Tidehunter x2
Puddlestomper x2
Coldlight Oracle x2
Coldlight Seer x2
Murloc Warleader x2
Murloc Knight x2
Old Murk-Eye
Azure Drake x2
Blackwing Corruptor x2
Dragon Consort x2
Chromaggus
Nefarian
Ysera


MichMedia

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Demon/Mech Warlock

Sacrificial Pact x 2
Power Overwhelming
Voidwalker x 2
Demonfire x 2
Mechwarper
Micro machine
Sense Demons
Demolisher
Felguard
Harvest Golem x 2
Tinkertown Technician x 2
Void Terror
Shadowflame x 2
Arcane Nullifier X-21
Fel Cannon
Voidcaller x 2
Antique Healbot x 2
Doomguard
Floating Watcher
Siphon Soul x 2
Dread Infernal

Beast/Murloc Hunter

Grimscale Oracle x 2
Murloc Tidecaller
Timber Wolf x 2
Webspinner x 2
Bluegill Warrior x 2
Dire Wolf Alpha x 2
Ironbeak Owl x 2
Murloc Tidehunter x 2
Animal Companion x 2
Kill Command x 2
Coldlight Seer
Murloc Warleader
Houndmaster x 2
Old Murk-Eye
Tundra Rhino x 2
Savannah Highmane x 2
Gladiator Longbow x 2


Terwox

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Druid Beast/Dragon

Innervate x 2
Wild Growth x 2
Druid of the Flame x 2
Swipe x 2
Keeper of the Grove x 2
Druid of the Claw x 2
Druid of the Fang x 2
Ancient of Lore x 2
Savage Combatant x 2
Druid of the Saber
Darnassus Aspirant x 2
Twilight Guardian x 2
Azure Drake x 2
Chillmaw
Rend Blackhand
Ysera
Chromaggus
Nefarian

Warlock Mech/Demon

Sacrificial Pact x 2
Mortal Coil x 2
Voidwalker x 2
Darkbomb x 2
Shadow Bolt
Hellfire x 2
Dreadsteed x 2
Siphon Soul x 2
Twisting Nether
Mal'Ganis
Baron Rivendare
Antique Healbot x 2
Sludge Belcher
Lord Jaraxxus
Annoy-o-Tron x 2
Arcane Nullifier X-21 x 2
Dr. Boom
Harvest Golem x 2
Imp Gang Boss


Byrdru

Spoiler (click to reveal)
1. Mysterious Mech Murlocs:
2x Avenge
1x Comp Spirit
2x Noble Sac
1x Redemption
1x Murloc Tidcaller (Murloc)
2x Annoy-a-tron (Mech)
2x Murloc Tidehunter (Murloc)
2x Shielded Minibot (Mech)
2x Muster for Battle
2x Coldlight Oracle (Murloc)
1x Murloc Warleader (Murloc)
2x Consecration
2x Murloc Knight (Murloc)
1x Old Murk-Eye (Murloc)
2x Piloted Shredder (Mech)
2x Clockwork Knight (Mech)
2x Mysterious Challenger
1x Dr. Boom (Mech)


2. Pirate Beast Hunter:

1x Bloodsail Raider (Pirate)
2x Southsea Deckhand (Pirate)
2x Glaivzooka
1x Explosive Trap
1x Freezing Trap
2x Quickshot
2x Bloodsail Raider (Pirate)
2x Mad Scientist
2x Ship's Cannon (Pirate)
2x Eaglehorn Bow
2x Animal Companion (Beast)
2x Kill Command (Beast)
2x Unleash the Hounds (Beast)
1x Arcane Golem
2x Dread Corsair (Pirate)
1x Houndmaster (Beast)
1x Loatheb
2x Savannah Highmain (Beast)


Spoon

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Warlock demon-dragon
Demon
Voidwalker
Demonwrath
2x imp gangboss
2x voidcaller
Demonheart
Doomguard
Malganis

Dragon
Blackwing Tech
2x twilight drake
Twilight guardian
2x azure drake
2x black wing corruptor
Chromaggus

Other
Mortal coil
2x Darkbomb
2x sunfury protector
Hellfire
Shadowflame
Defender of argus
Emperor thaurissan
Mountain Giant
2x molten giant


Hunter mech-beast
Mechs
2x Cogmaster
Mechwarper
Flying machine
Spider tank
2x tinkertown tech
Dragonling mechanic
Gelbin mekkatorque

Beasts
2x timber wolf
Bear trap
River croc
Jungle panther
2x houndmaster
Oasis snapjaw
Ram wrangler
2x Savannah highmane
The Beast
Captured jormungar

Other
Tracking
Argent squire
Explosive trap
Flame juggler
Acolyte of pain
Ogre brute
Spellbreaker
Ravenholdt assassin
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So only warriors can run taunt, if I'm reading this correctly?
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The Message wrote:

- To qualify as Battlecry tribal you must include two Crowd Favorites and at least one card that can return a minion you control to your hand. That includes either battlecry panda, shadowstep, vanish and anything I forgot. A card that generates spare parts does not count for consistency reasons.

Crowd Favorite is an epic, so it sorta has a high cost to entry. I mean, I'm swimming in dust, but I don't want to have to listen to McSpiffy whine for the next month.

Probably wouldn't matter so much, except that my gut level guess is that this is the most powerful tribe due to its versatility. Maybe I'm wrong, but if others agree, I would suggest just cutting this from the Tribe list.
 
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Terwox wrote:
So only warriors can run taunt, if I'm reading this correctly?

Yup.

 
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Terwox wrote:
So only warriors can run taunt, if I'm reading this correctly?


Not quite, no. Beasts have Ironfur Grizzly. Deathrattle has Sludebelcher, Abomination and that 2/3 that pumps itself up from GvG. Mechs have annoytron and arcane nullifier. Dragons have the new 4-drop, Chillmaw and Wyrmrest. Pirates have weapon grizzly. That's from memory, there are probably others.

A card only needs to hit one of your two tribes and there are quite a few cards that check more than one box.

spoon wrote:
The Message wrote:

- To qualify as Battlecry tribal you must include two Crowd Favorites and at least one card that can return a minion you control to your hand. That includes either battlecry panda, shadowstep, vanish and anything I forgot. A card that generates spare parts does not count for consistency reasons.

Crowd Favorite is an epic, so it sorta has a high cost to entry. I mean, I'm swimming in dust, but I don't want to have to listen to McSpiffy whine for the next month.

Probably wouldn't matter so much, except that my gut level guess is that this is the most powerful tribe due to its versatility. Maybe I'm wrong, but if others agree, I would suggest just cutting this from the Tribe list.


Possibly. They do have BGH, MCT and healbot for a very solid neutral base. They don't have a lot of great proactive cards but I could see it being one of the top tribes for supplementing another one that can actually get you into the game, like mechs or murlocs. Does anyone else second the motion?
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The Message wrote:
Terwox wrote:
So only warriors can run taunt, if I'm reading this correctly?


A card only needs to hit one of your two tribes and there are quite a few cards that check more than one box.

I think he meant, only Warriors can run the Taunt Tribe. Everyone can have taunt cards, but it can't be one of their two tribes.
 
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spoon wrote:
The Message wrote:
Terwox wrote:
So only warriors can run taunt, if I'm reading this correctly?


A card only needs to hit one of your two tribes and there are quite a few cards that check more than one box.

I think he meant, only Warriors can run the Taunt Tribe. Everyone can have taunt cards, but it can't be one of their two tribes.


Oh, then yeah. Only warlocks can run demons and only shamans can run totems as well.
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The Message wrote:
Terwox wrote:
So only warriors can run taunt, if I'm reading this correctly?


Not quite, no. Beasts have Ironfur Grizzly. Deathrattle has Sludebelcher, Abomination and that 2/3 that pumps itself up from GvG. Mechs have annoytron and arcane nullifier. Dragons have the new 4-drop, Chillmaw and Wyrmrest. Pirates have weapon grizzly. That's from memory, there are probably others.

A card only needs to hit one of your two tribes and there are quite a few cards that check more than one box.

spoon wrote:
The Message wrote:

- To qualify as Battlecry tribal you must include two Crowd Favorites and at least one card that can return a minion you control to your hand. That includes either battlecry panda, shadowstep, vanish and anything I forgot. A card that generates spare parts does not count for consistency reasons.

Crowd Favorite is an epic, so it sorta has a high cost to entry. I mean, I'm swimming in dust, but I don't want to have to listen to McSpiffy whine for the next month.

Probably wouldn't matter so much, except that my gut level guess is that this is the most powerful tribe due to its versatility. Maybe I'm wrong, but if others agree, I would suggest just cutting this from the Tribe list.


Possibly. They do have BGH, MCT and healbot for a very solid neutral base. They don't have a lot of great proactive cards but I could see it being one of the top tribes for supplementing another one that can actually get you into the game, like mechs or murlocs. Does anyone else second the motion?


It does have a high cost of entry, but I like it being a tribe. Could you do a substitute for those (like me) that don't want to craft 2 epics we won't use in any other context, like Chillwind Yeti instead? For that purpose the Yeti counts toward as the tribe. So you are still a little handicapped but at least the tribe is available.
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Here's another rule idea: your two decks have to be different classes and can't share any Tribes
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The Message wrote:
spoon wrote:
The Message wrote:
Terwox wrote:
So only warriors can run taunt, if I'm reading this correctly?


A card only needs to hit one of your two tribes and there are quite a few cards that check more than one box.

I think he meant, only Warriors can run the Taunt Tribe. Everyone can have taunt cards, but it can't be one of their two tribes.


Oh, then yeah. Only warlocks can run demons and only shamans can run totems as well.

The difference there is demons mostly exist in warlock and totems are only in shaman. Taunts are good for a few classes, but the current rule more or less forces Taunt Warrior, which seems contrary to the plan of encouraging deck diversity. I'd replace them with neutral cards.
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Lots of votes but not a lot of "I'm in" posts, should I take that as a good or bad sign?

byrdru wrote:


It does have a high cost of entry, but I like it being a tribe. Could you do a substitute for those (like me) that don't want to craft 2 epics we won't use in any other context, like Chillwind Yeti instead? For that purpose the Yeti counts toward as the tribe. So you are still a little handicapped but at least the tribe is available.


spoon wrote:

The difference there is demons mostly exist in warlock and totems are only in shaman. Taunts are good for a few classes, but the current rule more or less forces Taunt Warrior, which seems contrary to the plan of encouraging deck diversity. I'd replace them with neutral cards.


Well, the "tribal" concept is another one taken from Magic and the idea isn't just that the cards have something in common but that they have a synergy or other benefit based on that commonality. Elf tribal isn't a big thing because there are a lot of elves around, it works because there are a lot of elves that care about other elves. Apologies if I'm telling anyone here things they already know but I'm just trying to explain the thought process behind these decisions, so far it just happens that warrior provides the only cards that care about taunt minions and that the only card that really explicitly brings together battlecry as a "tribe" is Crowd Favorite, similar to what undertaker did for deathrattle.

If it helps I don't qualify for battlecry tribal either. I don't think that will be a serious limitation given the others available but like I said I'm totally open to dropping it as an option if people feel it will be a balance issue, fun is more important than some grand vision of the gimmick.

spoon wrote:
Here's another rule idea: your two decks have to be different classes and can't share any Tribes


Oops, I knew I forgot something. Good catch, adding it now.
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The Message wrote:

If it helps I don't qualify for battlecry tribal either. I don't think that will be a serious limitation given the others available but like I said I'm totally open to dropping it as an option if people feel it will be a balance issue, fun is more important than some grand vision of the gimmick.

My feeling is that dual-Tribe gimmick makes the deck building wacky and fun enough, and that the special restrictions for the non-standard tribes don't add anything (in the fun department) and tend to make the decks kind of same-ish.

Totally unrelated, but "weapon" might make for a fun tribe.
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I would like to participate.
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spoon wrote:
The Message wrote:

If it helps I don't qualify for battlecry tribal either. I don't think that will be a serious limitation given the others available but like I said I'm totally open to dropping it as an option if people feel it will be a balance issue, fun is more important than some grand vision of the gimmick.

My feeling is that dual-Tribe gimmick makes the deck building wacky and fun enough, and that the special restrictions for the non-standard tribes don't add anything (in the fun department) and tend to make the decks kind of same-ish.

Totally unrelated, but "weapon" might make for a fun tribe.


Also fair. Do note that you only have 12 non-tribe slots in the deck though and some of them will probably be spells. There already isn't a whole lot of room to throw in your standard BGH or whatever else it is that you feel will be missing. I'm more worried that in practice all this will do is make mechs even stronger since they are now the only tribe with access to shredder, annoytron, Dr. Boom and healbot.

But there's no point in arguing about it when we could just settle everything with another poll!

Poll
Should we include the four keyword tribes or not?
Yes, I appreciate the extra variety more tribe choices brings
No, I don't appreciate the lack of variety restricting certain cards brings
Kinda, I only have an issue with one or two of the tribes and will now tell you which ones I think should be kept and which ones discarded
      6 answers
Poll created by The Message


We'll do whatever this tells us to do which should satisfy the majority, because that's how polls work, and thus allow the tournament to not crash and burn right out of the gate (wouldn't be the first time either. Anyone remember the "final blow must be dealt with an expensive minion" idea that was almost used for one of these?).
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I really like the tribe idea.

IMO deathrattle/taunt/spell dmg shouldn't count as tribes. Only printed (real) tribes should count.

No one uses murlocs any more and no one has ever really used pirates. I want to see some pirate decks!
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Maybe I was too vague - I really like the mechanic based tribes (death rattle, taunt, battle cry, etc), I just don't like the added restrictions you put on them (eg, death rattle decks must contain undertakers). That's what I was objecting to.
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I do like the restrictions. If you want Sludge Belcher you have to have 2x undertaker as well (or play taunt warrior). I like it, it makes the decisions a lot tougher. Without these restrictions, I think it would be too easy to just use a normal deck that happens to have 9 taunts or deathrattles. Plus, the restrictions prevent you from using randon cards. For example, we may see no Loetheb or BGH just because your not using the battlecry tribe. I like the concept a lot.

My singular complaint is what has been mentioned regarding Crowd Favorite.
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If we do go with "taunt", "deathrattle", etc. I would argue that we are doing deck themes; not tribes. Yes - sentiments.

Tribes are creature types only! Goblins, merfolk and elves are tribes. Lifelink, Shroud, and Forestwalk are not.
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Junior McSpiffy
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Since someone suggested "Weapon" as a sub-class, I'll throw out "Secret" as a sub-class as well. Thoughts?
 
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Junior McSpiffy
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Imp-losion: It does not say Demon in the card, but it summons Imps, which are Demons. Ruling?
 
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Bimmy Jim
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GameCrossing wrote:
Imp-losion: It does not say Demon in the card, but it summons Imps, which are Demons. Ruling?


As per the OP:

- Anything that creates a minion of the subtype falls into that tribe. Dr. Boom is part of the mech tribe, Animal Companion is part of the beast tribe.

---

Also, Because the piloted shredder can spawn a murloc, it is part of the murloc tribe.

And Unstable Portal can fit in any tribe, including taunt, murloc, pirate, etc.

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rico
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BimmyJim wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
Imp-losion: It does not say Demon in the card, but it summons Imps, which are Demons. Ruling?


As per the OP:

- Anything that creates a minion of the subtype falls into that tribe. Dr. Boom is part of the mech tribe, Animal Companion is part of the beast tribe.

---

Also, Because the piloted shredder can spawn a murloc, it is part of the murloc tribe.

And Unstable Portal can fit in any tribe, including taunt, murloc, pirate, etc.


I think he meant consistently creates a minion of that tribe, so piloted shredder & unstable portal don't fit the bill. That's just based of the spare parts ruling, though, so I could be wrong
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Greg Byrd
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spoon wrote:
That's just based of the spare parts ruling, though, so I could be wrong


Am I going crazy? What is the spare parts ruling? I just reread the post and can't find it.
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Junior McSpiffy
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GameCrossing wrote:
Since someone suggested "Weapon" as a sub-class, I'll throw out "Secret" as a sub-class as well. Thoughts?


Inspire?
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