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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: LOS, Adjacency and Movement Revamp rss

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Dan Zielinski
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The Rulings:

Line of Sight: If the attacker can connect a straight line from any corner or midpoint of his space to a corner or midpoint of his target space without going through figures, doors, obstacles or walls, Line of Sight is gained. Corners and Midpoints that are not visible due to walls (black borders) are not available to determining LOS. A line drawn along the edge of an obstructed space still blocks LOS as by original rules.

Adjacency: Ignoring all other figures, a figure is adjacent to all 8 spaces surrounding the space the figure is in as long as LOS can be gained with each space. Any space not in LOS is not considered adjacent.

Movement: A figure may move to any adjacent space not containing an enemy figure unless LOS to that space is blocked by an obstacle, wall or enemy figure.





The Two basic changes to the current system.

1) Turns a 4 points check (corners only) into an 8 point check (adding the midpoints between the corners.)

2) This removes corners and midpoints that are not physically visible on the map due to the edge of the map tile (the black area) from being used in LOS.


Reasons:

The simple corner-to-corner system allowed for too many "unreal" situation to arise. It also nearly eliminated hiding or ducking behind corners. This system doesn't limit LOS to the amount that a center-to-center system would but does take in account the "thickness" of a wall. It will create more realistic LOS/Adjacency/Movement results.

Examples:



All green corners and midpoints are usable to determine LOS. Red Dots are NOT usable due to the wall. (Notices how you physically can not see those corners and midpoints on the tiles. This makes it easy to play out the rule.)

A figure in space D can not gain LOS with space A and thus it will not be adjacent to space A. It thus can not move into space A, being not adjacent.

A figure in space C is adjacent to all 8 spaces around it because it can gain LOS with all 8 spaces.



The Goblin Archer does NOT have LOS with Widow Tahra because of the Wall and Grisban both not allowing corners or midpoints to connect. (Remember the "shared corner" is hidden in the wall and thus can not be used to trace LOS.)
The Goblin IS adjacent to both hero spaces because adjacency ignores all figures.
The Goblin could move into all adjacent spaces only because he has "scamper." Without scamper, the goblin would only be able to move into spaces not occupied by heroes.
If Widow Tarha was not on the board but Grisban remained in his space(and the goblin didn't have Scamper) the goblin would NOT be able to move into the space Widow Tarha was because the Goblin does not have LOS to that space (due to the Wall and Grisban.)


Why the 8 point system?

The corner-to-corner system would make 2-space-wide hallways a terrible LOS location if we are keeping the "wall thickness" rules.



The Goblin Archer can not gain LOS with Widow Tarha because the only available point is a Wall... and thus not usable. If Widow Tarha moves to the space X, then the Goblin gains LOS with Widow (and vice versa) because of the midpoint to midpoint rule. If only corners could be used, unrealistic situations in skinny hallways occur.


What about Obstacles?

Obstacles still work as they always have and shouldn't change in this system.



Space A and B have LOS with each other because of their shared corner. Obstacles are NOT walls. All their corners and midpoints are usable. Spaces C and D, however, are NOT adjacent. They do not share a corner because that corner itself isn't visible... it's in the wall.



EDIT: Included LOS along the edge of blocked space rule.
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Paul
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Rules as written, D is already not adjacent to A. The main change in your rules (which I'm not thrilled about) is that B is no longer adjacent to D, nor C to A. While it prevents a few unreal scenarios, it increases the complexity of LOS significantly compared to the benefit, in my opinion.

My preferred house rule for LOS is outlined here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5ZpXh6VhOyUU2E2VWxLcWF2bk...

It explains some situations the LOS diagram in the unofficial FAQ (https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1657088_md.png) in the first few slides with the proposed house rules in the later slides.
 
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Dan Zielinski
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Quote:
Rules as written, D is already not adjacent to A.


Agreed, though it wasn't clear until the FAQ.

Quote:
The main change in your rules (which I'm not thrilled about) is that B is no longer adjacent to D, nor C to A.


B is adjacent to D ... (and C to A) on two accounts. You can trace LOS from the top left corner of D to the top left corner of B or the top midpoint of D to the left midpoint of B.

Quote:
While it prevents a few unreal scenarios, it increases the complexity of LOS significantly compared to the benefit, in my opinion.


We find the increase in complexity extremely little seeing how LOS is truly questionable only a few times per encounter. But for our group, realism is more important.

Quote:
My preferred house rule for LOS is outlined here:


Thank you. I didn't find a "rule" though. Just a bunch of examples.
 
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Paul
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Ah, sorry I must have misunderstood what you were saying about adjacency.

Our house rule is just regarding those little sticking out edges of black line.

1) Line of sight can never be traced perpendicularly along a black map edge.

That is, in the unofficial FAQ diagram I referenced, we agree that there is no LOS in 6. However, we say that there is not line of sight in 7 or 8, either. The lines of sight that are listed as valid in 7 and 8 perfectly overlap with the line traced in 6. Therefore, 6,7,and 8 should ALL have line of sight, or none of them should. We choose to say that none of them should. Stated more simply, we think that scenario 7 is identical to scenario 4, and that scenario 8 is identical to scenario 5. No LOS in any of them.

2) The first space a line of sight passes through must be adjacent.

That is, in the same diagram, even though scenario 9 is listed as having line of sight, we say it should not. Again, this is a logic argument. The line A traces to B and D goes RIGHT THROUGH THE CORNERS of the space A can't see in scenario 6. If A can't see the corner of the space in scenario 6 (which we agree it shouldn't) it shouldn't be able to see through those same corners in scenario 9.

In the linked slides, I detailed why that last part is a little subjective, since you are going diagonally, and with most other situations in descent, diagonal makes everything OK. However, by specifying adjacency of the first space, that allows LOS from the space just below A, but not from A itself. Basically, it limits the diagonal viewing to diagonals that are less than perpendicular, but not greater.

Those 2 rules turn the spaces in sight (green) from this:

http://imgur.com/E2EYFsn,FrkQWm6#1

to this:

http://imgur.com/E2EYFsn,FrkQWm6#0
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Peter Van den Broeck
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Quote:
Quote:

My preferred house rule for LOS is outlined here:

Thank you. I didn't find a "rule" though. Just a bunch of examples.

Indeed, the document seems incompete. It refers to rule (5), (6) and so on.

I do like the rules that you propose. It seems to solve the most anomalic situations and does not require a lot of complex rules. One could say (in a brief manner) that they are the same rules as the official ones but take into account the midpoints and not the points in the thick black walls.

P
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Alexander Steinbach
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Maybe you should then quote a bit further than you did:

zaltyre wrote:


My preferred house rule for LOS is outlined here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5ZpXh6VhOyUU2E2VWxLcWF2bk...

It explains some situations the LOS diagram in the unofficial FAQ (https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1657088_md.png) in the first few slides with the proposed house rules in the later slides.


The numbers are consistent with the examples in the second document which was an official answer from FFG.


I believe that Zaltyres house ruling is elegant and makes more sense than the official ruling. Thanks for sharing, also to the OP.
 
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Dan Zielinski
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Quote:
One could say (in a brief manner) that they are the same rules as the official ones but take into account the midpoints and not the points in the thick black walls.


Thank you. I like your brief description even better.
 
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