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Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » General

Subject: What constitutes a cheesy list in X-Wing? rss

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Les Marshall
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Miniatures games are often attractive to players due to the ability to paint and modify models but, also to create custom army lists. To the hobbyist, this is an opportunity to add a narrative/creative element to a game. To a competitive gamer, this is an opportunity to create an army list that will win tournaments and make opponents cry in their beer.

Having played Warhammer for a few years, I was familiar with the phrase, "that is a cheese list" meaning a list built without reference to an army's fluff but solely to min/max combos and synergy's. Since WHFB was not a particularly well play tested game (especially it's army codexes), it was fairly easy to find the rules/units open to abuse.

Now that X-wing is a mature game, we have seen some realities in the meta that tend to argue certain ships/combinations are very effective. Before Wave 7, the most common tournament builds tended to be two ship lists with Soontir and a Decimator or Han/Chewie or Dash Rendar with Corran Horn for example. Rebel swarms were often 4 B-Wings and TIE swarms almost always had to have Howlrunner.

It's pretty easy to argue that Fat Han or Chewie, Dash, Soontir, Whisper and various other pilots all tricked out in particular combos are somewhat cheesy. I happen to think the game is well enough designed that many builds CAN be competitive while some gather victory's because so many people fly the same ships in a Lemming like orgy of me too-ism.

What struck me oddly last week came after a game in which I flew 8 Z-95's. A bystander referenced the build as cheesy. I had never flown a pure Z swarm before and perhaps was over focused on it's vulnerabilities (terrain/coordination/low PS). According to many comments I've heard, the Z swarm is a poor tournament choice due to the likelihood of losing several ships and getting a poorer MOV even when you win.

So this begs the questions. What builds in X-Wing should be considered cheesy (if any)? Is a big swarm (Z-95's, TIE's, Scyk's) of 7-8 ships a cheesy build?
 
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Derry Salewski
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Nothing.

If fortresses worked, then those probably would be.

But they don't, really. The game is well balanced.

Swarms have been around since THE beginning of the game. Whoever made that comment isn't very bright.
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Richard Dickson
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I know some who would say the new hotness of Y-Wings with Twin Laser Turrets is pretty cheesy.
 
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Andreas Krüger
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The MOV remark may be correct, but it does not matter if you win all your games. However, with one loss, you depend on a good MOV to make it to the top cut.
 
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Rulesjd wrote:
It's pretty easy to argue that Fat Han or Chewie, Dash, Soontir, Whisper and various other pilots all tricked out in particular combos are somewhat cheesy.


Anything that wins will be considered cheesy by a large percentage of people. Generally speaking, most people that go to tourneys want to win so there will be a lot of cheesy name calling when someone finds success.

The ultimate barometer should be the person flying the list. Is he a "douche bag" that copy/pasted an unoriginal list in order to win? If so, then that is rather sad and he should be given the Spokian eye brow.

Or is he a good guy that enjoys flying a certain way and always a gentleman behind the table? Did he invent his list, or tweak it in some way? If so, leave him alone and give him some respect.

For example, the winner at Gen Con had a YT list but with his own stamp on it. That's pretty cool imho.


Quote:
last week came after a game in which I flew 8 Z-95's. A bystander referenced the build as cheesy.....Is a big swarm (Z-95's, TIE's, Scyk's) of 7-8 ships a cheesy build?


Now we come to the heart of the matter behind your post. It seems that being called a guy that flies a cheesy list bugged you so much you had to make a post about it.

Don't worry about what people say. The best word to come out of hip-hop culture is "haters." Haters gonna hate yo.

That being said, always act like a gentleman, play with class and remember to fly casual. Even when you do all that, you can never please everyone.

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Ralph T
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Making a list that is exactly like the build that won or finished second at Worlds is cheesy. Also building something that is clearly not your own build but one you saw is the build du jour is cheesy.

For example, Fat Han with title, Engine Upgrade, C3PO, R2D2, Predator, plus 3 Talas.
 
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ralpher wrote:
Making a list that is exactly like the build that won or finished second at Worlds is cheesy. Also building something that is clearly not your own build but one you saw is the build du jour is cheesy.

For example, Fat Han with title, Engine Upgrade, C3PO, R2D2, Predator, plus 3 Talas.


What if the person is new to the game? I'd tell them to copy/paste a winning list so they can play longer and learn more in a tournament.

I think you have to get to a certain level to be able to invent a meta setting list, and that takes a lot of time.

It's not always so cut and dry. That's why I say the barometer should be the person flying the list.

Judge the motive behind the action.
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Patrick Reynolds
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R2EQ wrote:
ralpher wrote:
Making a list that is exactly like the build that won or finished second at Worlds is cheesy. Also building something that is clearly not your own build but one you saw is the build du jour is cheesy.

For example, Fat Han with title, Engine Upgrade, C3PO, R2D2, Predator, plus 3 Talas.


What if the person is new to the game? I'd tell them to copy/paste a winning list so they can play longer and learn more in a tournament.

I think you have to get to a certain level to be able to invent a meta setting list, and that takes a lot of time.

It's not always so cut and dry. That's why I say the barometer should be the person flying the list.

Judge the motive behind the action.


100% agree. Playing a list that someone else "invented," or "inventing" your own, it doesn't matter. I put quotes there because I have a hard time taking people seriously when they talk about a single person "inventing" any given list in any tabletop game. In all likelihood, no they didn't. Show me a list and I guarantee someone else, somewhere in the world, also came up with that exact composition (with the chances increasing based on the popularity of the game, of course).

Play what's fun to you, whether it's something you put together without outside influence or something you saw online or at a tournament. Be a good sport and a fun opponent. That's all that matters.

No list in X-Wing is "cheesy." That's a word that people use when they're unable to admit that they lost to you due to skill levels or luck or any number of other factors. Those people are poor sports and generally shouldn't be playing tabletop games.
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Richard Dickson
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If the list you make is legal under the rules, it's not cheesy. Instead of complaining about what someone flies, people should put their minds to coming up with a list that beats it.
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Les Marshall
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R2EQ wrote:


Now we come to the heart of the matter behind your post. It seems that being called a guy that flies a cheesy list bugged you so much you had to make a post about it.

Don't worry about what people say. The best word to come out of hip-hop culture is "haters." Haters gonna hate yo.

That being said, always act like a gentleman, play with class and remember to fly casual. Even when you do all that, you can never please everyone.



I'm not bugged so much as curious. Frankly, I was surprised that someone would refer to a Z swarm as cheesy. However, it did make me wonder if my view would be reflected in the "community". As I mentioned above, this game is well enough designed that every list has an answer and good piloting is often more important than list building.

So far, it doesn't seem that cheesy builds are a concern among those who have responded.
 
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Matt Asher
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Anything with Wedge or (maybe) Bleu sq. pilot
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pkreynolds wrote:
I have a hard time taking people seriously when they talk about a single person "inventing" any given list in any tabletop game. In all likelihood, no they didn't. Show me a list and I guarantee someone else, somewhere in the world, also came up with that exact composition (with the chances increasing based on the popularity of the game, of course).


There are plenty of people who have invented lists, it's not as uncommon as you'd think.

Most of the time a winner of a major tournament will have invented a list. That list then get's posted by Major Juggler on the FFG forum and from there people start copying it. If it's any good, it goes viral and becomes a meta list.

That's not to say someone else might not have invented the same list later on, but you should always give credit where credit is due.
 
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nothing in x-wing comes close to anything in warhammer and 40k on the cheese/beardy level.

this is because the rock paper scissor balance is still pretty good.

8z s is a list that beats people expecting the 2 ship meta or arc dodgers. it loses to lists expecting a swarm.

the meta just changed with wave 7. 2 ship lists look like they will lose some ground. but i also see a lot of soontir hate in there too. time will tell
 
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Personally, I'd consider a list 'cheesy' if pretty much anyone could field the list and win without much effort on their part. However does that exist in X-Wing right now? It seems like for every list out there, people could field a list that could counter it pretty well.

I'll give you an example of cheese in another game; the Borg when they first came out in Star Trek Attack Wing. When they initially came out, they were over powered, simple to fly, and undercosted. People who had only the basic idea of how to play the game and were given a net-list could easily win against any other non-Borg list. That's not to say that they were completely unbeatable, it's just that they had so many advantages that they were extremely difficult to beat and skill had nothing to do with it.

I don't think I've heard of anything like that so far in X-Wing. I think the only thing that came close were Tie Phantoms when they first came out and even then, I believe there were counters to them.

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Richard Dickson
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Redeemer31 wrote:
Personally, I'd consider a list 'cheesy' if pretty much anyone could field the list and win without much effort on their part. However does that exist in X-Wing right now? It seems like for every list out there, people could field a list that could counter it pretty well.


Not only that, most lists need to be flown well in order to succeed. People think you can just throw eight TIE Fighters out there and win by sheer numbers, but unless you know how to fly them in formation and concentrate your fire, you've got nothing but a punch of glass pea-shooters zipping around.
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Nate Reynolds
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ralpher wrote:
Making a list that is exactly like the build that won or finished second at Worlds is cheesy. Also building something that is clearly not your own build but one you saw is the build du jour is cheesy.

For example, Fat Han with title, Engine Upgrade, C3PO, R2D2, Predator, plus 3 Talas.


I would aggressively disagree. There are only so many lists in this game and people are going to have similar lists. I have seen a dozen version of Fat han etc that may be direct copies of the original list or may be tweaked to meet the individual meta. I don't see this in any way being cheesy.
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What about turret-heavy lists? Could it be considered cheesy to not have to line up arcs and just be close?

I only ask because Im newer and havent played against turrets yet.
 
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MattG666 wrote:
What about turret-heavy lists? Could it be considered cheesy to not have to line up arcs and just be close?

I only ask because Im newer and havent played against turrets yet.


No, Turreted ships have their drawbacks too. They may be slightly easier to fly around but they can be beat by a better player.

As I said before the meta for competitive play is in flux with allt he wave 7 stuff. It looks like the Twin Laser Turret is going to shake things up, bu so too will Bossk and all the ordinance on the K-wings/Punnishers/and bombers.

So fly what you like. Try different things. I say go learn the lists that were winning and fly with and against them, you have to know what beats them and get good at pulling it off, flying them helps this a lot.

-M
 
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Swampy Crocker
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As someone who has a lot of trouble beating large based, turreted ships(specifically Yts) I called them cheap for way too long.
No list in X-wing is "cheesy." There are lists that are tougher, but this is a very rock-paper-scissors style game. I fail at being turreted ships because 1) I don't build list to counter them well and 2) even if I have a strong anti-Falcon build I tend to not fly well against them. I am the product of my own shortcomings, not a product of unbeatable list.
Anyone who calls a list cheesy has the same shortcomings as I did. It's a lazy way to refuse to play better or practice to get better.
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theashers wrote:
Anything with Wedge or (maybe) Bleu sq. pilot


Or Captain "Pepper" Jack
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Les Marshall
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theashers wrote:
Anything with Wedge or (maybe) Bleu sq. pilot


Wedge?! How dare you sir! The venerable X-Wing in any iteration is one of the least seen ships on the gaming tables. Why the very notion. Grumble.
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Jeff Dunford
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Rulesjd wrote:
theashers wrote:
Anything with Wedge or (maybe) Bleu sq. pilot


Wedge?! How dare you sir! The venerable X-Wing in any iteration is one of the least seen ships on the gaming tables. Why the very notion. Grumble.


OK, how about a Y-wing? Like, Dutch van der Gouda?
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David Hammel
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Rulesjd wrote:
theashers wrote:
Anything with Wedge or (maybe) Bleu sq. pilot


Wedge?! How dare you sir! The venerable X-Wing in any iteration is one of the least seen ships on the gaming tables. Why the very notion. Grumble.


Nothing gets past this guy.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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On topic, I dubbed the squad I took to Canadian Nationals "Double Quarter Pounders with Cheese" - a Lando (L) + Chewie (C) double YT-1300 list featuring C3PO (L), Nien Nunb (L), Jan Ors (C), Recon Specialist (C), Millennium Falcon title (L), Push the Limit (L) and Veteran Instinct (C). In my opinion, 360° turrets have always been a little "cheesy" in a game that's otherwise about outmaneuvering your opponent's ships, gaining firing arc while denying arc to your opponent, etc. This squad, which was a big change from my traditional TIE Swarm variants, was built specifically to counter the "Fat Han" meta while still doing OK against TIE Phantoms (pre-nerf) shortly before the release of Wave 5 (YT-2400 "Outrider" and VT-49 "Decimator" = more 360° turrets).
 
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I think when people have negative play experiences against a certain type of ship or a certain type of list, they vent their frustration by calling it cheesy.

For example, if you just unloaded your entire squad's firepower against Soontir and you didn't scratch him, I could see how you feel that your opponent's skill had nothing to do with it. It doesn't take a genius to Focus+Focus+Evade with Soontir every turn. The ship survived all those attacks with the help of math and statistics. The guy flying the ship had nothing to do with it, right?

Or what about Corran with R2D2. I've seen players strip the shields off of him and then three turns later he is back to full health. It's not hard to do greens every turn and turtle, right?

Same with a swarm. I've seen players joust with a swarm and lose half their ships in one round, and die within 20 minutes. They react negatively to the swarm because of it.

But that doesn't make those lists cheesy. I like the challenge of trying to win with less than traditional lists, but I don't hold it against anyone if they want to run a proven powerful list. If you can't build a list to beat it, that is on you.
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