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Subject: Rules Rewrite (OFFICIAL) rss

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Potluck Games

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We're getting a lot of feedback about confusion on the rules for Dungeon Dice. We don't want poor wording to detract from the game.

We would like to create an updated PDF version of the rules that causes fewer disputes and less confusion.

To that end, I'm inviting feedback of any type on the current rules for the base game and GUILDS.

[Please be respectful. There will be some disagreement. I encourage discussion, so I can get a feel for how many of you have problems with specific issues/phrasing. In general, my goal is to express rules in the simplest form that does not cause confusion.]

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Mike T
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I'd like an initiative chart, if possible. We've had questions on what goes first on some conflicts.
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Oscar Segoviano
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The first time we played the game we had a hard time finding out what happens if there is a tie with the monster and hero. It took us about 10 minutes of rereading the rule book. We realized that there is only one sentence that dealt with ties in the book. (technically 2 with that same sentence on the back of the book.)
I'll look through the rule book later this evening for more concerns.
 
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Scott Cantor
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I think most of the contention arises from arguments over the specific order of events with different abilities and game features.

The reference sheet in the files section is a fairly invaluable, but unofficial, guide to that complexity, and I think it needs to be made official and updated to account the any disagreements from Potluck with its interpretations of the order and effect of abilities.

I think there need to be clear phases in which the abilities "fire" and interrupts have to be defined or precluded. If that's deemed "too complex", I think you made a mistake introducing some of the abilities. You can't get clarity without addressing the complexity inherent in the design.
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Patrick
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This thread is a pleasant surprise.

What saved the game for me was this file from user kirkbauer:

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/103974/comprehensive-turn...

I am not even sure it's all valid but to me it make sense so this is how we play the game. But a clear timing structure is so needed in the rules. That and an official player aid with all the symbols would be great.
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Brian Hunt
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I agree that it's the timing of things that need clarifying. The document I use has already been referred to in previous posts. It would be good to incorporate this into the official rules.

Also, some of the more esoteric items (like the harp) maybe need clarifying as I still find its use confusing. I am away at the moment, but when I get back I can add some more specific examples. It's usually when things are used 'out of turn' that things get a little wobbly with rules.
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Potluck Games

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I believe the rulebook needs to define phases, and better explain the sequence of abilities.

I think there are only a small number of abilities that need to be labeled as "interrupt." STUN and FOCUS come to mind.
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I am in total agreement for the phase/sequence. I was so confused the first time I read how battles worked. Maybe I'm more of a visual person. Active plays as many as they want, other do the same, repeat until both no longer want to roll or add any dice.

My recommendation would be a collection of all the skill icons in a compact leaflet for quick reference. This would be very useful for new players instead of searching through 3 or 4 manuals. Maybe someone good as graphic design can jam everything into a few pages while keeping the icons easy to find and the text easy to read. + Extra color code for expansion packs.(could be just a pdf)
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Matt Mason
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Potluck Games wrote:
I believe the rulebook needs to define phases, and better explain the sequence of abilities.


I agree. Focusing on the phases will emphasize the simple mechanic that gives this game a fast and smooth flow. I would hate to see the new rules mired in the minutiae of "if this, then that, unless this, then other..."
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Team Ski
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Thanks for looking into a rewrite!

-Ski
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Todd Pytel
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Potluck Games wrote:
I believe the rulebook needs to define phases, and better explain the sequence of abilities.

Specifically, I'd suggest the base rules on the Player Turn be reorganized and expanded. Right now, pg.4 breaks down the Player Turn into 1. Search, 2. Assistance, 3. Combat, and 4. Trophies. But various rules discussions have indicated that (2) is a "Pre-Combat Step" with a variety of possible events that can occur there. Section (2) should be renamed appropriately and should list exactly what can happen there. Similar, section (3) should delineate the order of various abilities more specifically. Right now, it's more of a narrative.
 
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Team Ski
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A couple of things....

1. Combine the rulebooks. Searching through three (soon to be four) is labor-some.

2. Duels! The rulebook introduces duels without telling the player why they are in the game....that is until you reach the crown in the dice explanations. I was scratching my head for hours until I happened across the crown.

3. The use of one-time dice in combat by off-turn players is ambiguous in the rules. It should be specifically mentioned that off-turn players can use one-use dice to help the monsters only and not other players. This was a cause for contention in my group.

4. Bonus levels - For example, the monk. You get a bonus level. Does this mean an additional level dice? If so, please change the rules from "gain an bonus level" to "an additional level dice". This created confusion in that you could be level 1 and an additional level would be level 2, meaning that you get nothing at all. Same for the Song of Strength.

5. Explain how to heal a wounded piece of equipment. Can you use a heal dice for BOTH you and your equipment if multiple hearts are rolled?

6. Throw - can you use the dagger in your own combat? Even if you have a 2 handed weapon?

Formatting. The examples are too wordy. They end up burying small strings of rules in between them (or even introduce a rule or two - see the additional combat examples for armor). It took me quite a few careful read-throughs to find some of the rules. Keep the rules together and the examples at the end of each section.

More coming....

-Ski



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binary sunrise

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+1 for combining the rulebooks
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Daniel Kearns
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I don't think you're considering this but I'd pay for a set of cards for each class die that summarize each face with its corresponding power.

This way you give the player the matching card as a reminder when they draw the die.

Heck, I'd pay for an official PDF of the cards that you could print out.

The thought of having to pass around the book and find the class die each time someone wanted to use them has put me off even trying.

Also, charm and the harp powers make no sense to me.
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Team Ski
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dkearns wrote:
I don't think you're considering this but I'd pay for a set of cards for each class die that summarize each face with its corresponding power.

This way you give the player the matching card as a reminder when they draw the die.

Heck, I'd pay for an official PDF of the cards that you could print out.

The thought of having to pass around the book and find the class die each time someone wanted to use them has put me off even trying.

Also, charm and the harp powers make no sense to me.


Already in the file section.

-Ski
 
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Jordon Davis
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I was confused with class and equipment dice. I couldn't find a definitive answer if class dice ONLY let you equip items on the dice or if you only need to have one weapon to meet the requirement and then equip something else. For example can a wizard have a staff and a sword and still benefit from the wizard abilities or can a wizard ONLY have a staff/dagger/both
 
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Donn Hardy
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A list of which dice can be used out of turn and under what circumstances could be useful. There are many listed in the FAQ with no official rule to back them up.

A few clarifications based on previous posts:
- one use dice can aid either the player or the monster.
- duels occur in the case of ties.
- numbers on the level die are experience, not levels. Your level is the number of level dice you are using, so gaining a bonus level always grants a bonus die.
- each heart is an individual heal, so each can heal something different, if fest.
- daggers can be thrown on your turn as well as other players' turns.
- each class (except the knight) requires only one weapon. Other equipment slots can be used for anything.
 
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Brian Cherry
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I'm very happy to see this, as I was one of the backers who had trouble figuring out how to play the game, and bought up rule questions in guilds. I always felt like the rules were written by someone who knew the game very well, and assumed we would all naturally understand the flow.

I think phases is the best idea. I will look back through the rules and see if anything jumps out at me.
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Gilles Monchoux
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I'm delighted that the author himself launch the project of rewriting the rules. It's been a couple of week I'm writing my own rule book with another person, and we do it for a reason. Of course, our work may be obsolete if something official come out, but I will not complain.

RPGs like Dungeons & Dragons usually excel at making large set of rules working together, and they do it well because they separate two basic concepts : the "generalities" and the "exceptions". Current Dungeon Dice rules perform poorly to make such distinction, and this is the first thing the new rules should improve. The second thing would be to define a structured set of "general" rules, that work flawlessly and that further "exceptions" can reference without ambiguity.

Potluck Games already stated the needs of phase definition. I can't agree more. The current Player Turn chapter is a mess. I suggest to clarify it by defining those phases, so that other rules only have to state in which phase(s) they are involved. Abilities like Fear or Armor will not have to create new undefined contexts like "before combat" or "before other abilities", they will only precise that they happen in phase X.
The phases I have identified for my house rule book are the following:
1- Search for Monsters = draw in the black bag, roll the monster if applicable, end turn if no combat can happen.
2- Prepare for combat = Optionally choose an assistant, then decide whether to fight or flee (end of turn in this case). "Before combat" apply here.
3- Combat
3.1- Roll combat dice
3.2- Activate abilities
3.3- Resolve combat = Find who win or if it is a tie
3.4- Activate "after combat" abilities
3.5- Rewards and trophy

This is not perfect and require more thought, but you get the idea.

Once the phases are defined, the need is to describe which dice can be thrown at which phases, for the active player, the assistant and non involved players. I am sorry to say that, but by the rule, nothing allow you to roll equipped dice unless you draw a monster, roll a monster face and choose to fight it. Items like the bag of holding don't fit anywhere else. If the rule want the bag or magic armors to be rolled if a hero rest, flee or whatever, it needs to state some generalities addressing this, or making some exceptions for those items (like it does for the skeleton key, the spear or the harp).
To summarize, it should be obvious to know when you can roll equipments, hero level dice, one-use dice, familiars, classes, etc.

Once everything is settled, we still need to know in which order abilities are resolved. The "hero first" rules works most of the time, then you encounter a golem and you start having headache. I wonder if the "armor first" rule is worth it for what it accomplish. "armor first" doesn't fit anywhere in the combat sequence I defined. We may define a phase just for that, but it will only contain Armor, and will only matter if the monster have this ability. If it were my choosing, I would just drop the rule. Sure, the golem and the crab would be slightly weaker, but Armor management would be much more simple.
Anyway, be sure when you say "hero first" or "armor first" that everything fit in there. Focus and Stun obviously don't, and there is some weird cases with "before combat" abilities (see KS comments about Reach and Fear). This can be address in the "generalities" if it makes sense, or as exceptions in the abilities description.

Finally, make sure that the descriptions of symbol match the general rules. It will lead to less wondering. My favorite example of the moment is Toad, which "Turns the opponent into a toad with a combat strength of 1." This is a good story, but there is no rule for change morphing, Dungeon Dice only talk about dice. "transform into a toad" needs to be translated into dice manipulation, and the ability needs to describe that.

I've been quite long, but I'm pretty sure I'll have more to add in the following days. It is important that every concepts are properly defined in a rule book. Thanks for having read my long post.
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I agree that the rule books need to be combined and simplified. I love the game and all but fumbling around 3 different rule books for definitions of abilities is really a huge detraction from actually playing the game. I mean how silly do I look to my game group when I have to look something up and im shuffling through multiple books multiple times?

I would recommend having every single ability and status effect icon from all iterations of the game be in the most current rule book and all in 1 section.

The next game session I will play specifically to take notes of annoyances.
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Maskounet wrote:
I'm delighted that the author himself launch the project of rewriting the rules. It's been a couple of week I'm writing my own rule book with another person, and we do it for a reason. Of course, our work may be obsolete if something official come out, but I will not complain.


Great post. You brought up some really good points. The bag of holding is a good example of how ambiguous the rules can be. One question, though. The term "capacities" is troublesome. Is the term "capacities" the same as "abilities" which is a far more applicable term? If so, are the abilities you are referring to including one-use dice, class dice, etc.?

-Ski
 
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Gilles Monchoux
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PS: I have edited my initial post to use the term "ability"

Teamski wrote:
Great post. You brought up some really good points. The bag of holding is a good example of how ambiguous the rules can be. One question, though. The term "capacities" is troublesome. Is the term "capacities" the same as "abilities" which is a far more applicable term? If so, are the abilities you are referring to including one-use dice, class dice, etc.?


My apologies, I mean "abilities" of course. English is not my mother tongue, and I got confused with the term "capacité" used in the french version.
I mean abilities, which should be resolved the same way no matter the kind of dice is considered. The rules are very confusing by using the same term both for a die and for an ability. For example "Armor" is both an ability and type of equipment. Drain is an ability and also a spell. A strict differentiation of names between abilities and equipments/spells would help a lot.
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Potluck Games

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Let me begin by compiling all of the abilities by type. I can do some rewording for clarity on a few of the problem rules.

 
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Potluck Games wrote:
Let me begin by compiling all of the abilities by type. I can do some rewording for clarity on a few of the problem rules.



That would be awesome. While there are a lot of abilities, it would be easier to find them if they were in the rules, not just in the dice descriptions. It makes reading the rules easier if you know what slash is without having to go to the dice section to read about it.

-Ski
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Potluck Games wrote:
We would like to create an updated PDF version of the rules...To that end, I'm inviting feedback of any type on the current rules for the base game and GUILDS.

This is fantastic news Potluck! Thank you for opening this up to discussion. Here's my can of worms.

Here is a list of all questions that have come up in our play group as well as questions I have gleaned from BGG going back to the beginning:

1. Assassin - "*In addition to rolling this die while participating in combat, once per round you may roll the Assassin while not participating in combat." Does this ability allow me to draw a monster and roll Assassin before deciding to fight (as my once per round ability), then enter combat and be able to roll the die again in combat? Does this meet the limitation "A hero may only benefit from one Class per turn."? Needs clarification.

2. Assassin - Intimidation (passive ability) - How does it work? Is my choice of heroes to target limited in any way? Can I declare after my turn ends that all other heroes are -1 Combat for the round (in other words, am I limited to one declaration)? Or can I barter the power on each player turn and apply the -1 as I see fit as extortion?

3. Druid - Train Familiar (passive ability) - Is this limited to only your own familiars? Can I use this off-turn to force a hero to reroll a familiar? Can I barter the power off-turn and help a hero keep his familiar if it escapes?

4. Cleric - Bless - Is limited to yourself or an "ally". Does this include an Assistant?

5. Can a player have more than one Class die? It is not stated directly.

6. Each of the Class Requirements could be stated: "You must be equipped with at least a..." to avoid the assumption that there is otherwise some limitation.

7. The rules state: "Class dice may only be rolled during combat, unless otherwise mentioned, and may not be rerolled." - This needs clarification because a Whip, or any other combat die for example, also may not be re-rolled, unless there is something that forces it or allows it. Can you clarify that a Class die cannot be re-rolled under any circumstance, including Gust?

8. From the rule book: "Assistants may add their own LEVEL dice and equipped dice to combat." Is there any limitation as to what dice an assistant may use in the combat? Can they use Class dice, familiars and unequipped dice?

9. Can the Monster abilities such as Armor, Drain, Tangle, Stun, Void etc. affect dice that are added to combat such as spell dice, one-use dice, familiars, etc? Or only the initial combat dice?

10. Do rolls of 6 on the monster dice result in a potion for each 6 rolled? Or just a potion if at least one 6 is rolled?

11. If a player rolls the Acid Locked Chest but doesn't have a key and takes from the Blue bag, does he suffer the effects of Acid?

12. When a player rolls and uses a Bag of Holding can he return the Bag of Holding as the item returned?

13. Q): Monster ability "Execute": From the rulebook: "When used against a hero of the indicated level or lower, the target immediately loses combat.": I know that Monster abilities only affect the active player, but I would guess that if the active player is Executed then so is his partner? Just like with all combats where one side wins or loses together, not individually. But it's definitely a tricky question. A): The targeted player is basically removed from combat along with his combat dice, and the Assistant fights on. The active player's spell and one-use dice effects, if any, remain intact. This encourages an assistant to help, and simply needs rewording in the original rulebook. (Sam Coates on BGG 6/4/15) Addressing this in the new book would be good.

14. If an active player who has an assistant is removed from combat by an Execute ability, can he still use one-use dice? Familiars? Class die? etc.

15. Can I decide to equip a Bow after my first monster draw, and then draw another monster?

16. If I force a re-roll on a Swarm die does it get eliminated if it rolls above the swarm threshold?

17. Q): Is the Witch immune to Spells? If the Hero goes first and decides to cast all the available spells does the witch get to repeat any of them? A): She gets to pick two spells, and she is immune to the spells she chooses. However, since heroes may pick first, you could use a fire spell, for example, and the witch no longer has that option. (Potluck on BGG 6/22/13) Addressing this in the new book would be good.

18. Q): I tied with a monster, resulting in an increase in level (and addition of a hero level die) and a wound. I had already lost all my other level dice to wounds. What order do the combat outcome effects occur? Does the wound happen first (when I have no dice to lose), or last (after I received my new die)? A): The active hero decides the order of events. (Basically, it's always in your favor) (Potluck on BGG 4/18/14) Addressing this in the new book would be good.

19. Q): When are the single use dice returned to the bag, before or after the draw for single use rewards? A): Red dice are returned to the bag as soon as they are used. (Donn Hardy on BGG 4/18/14) Addressing this in the new book would be good.

20. Necromancer's Staff vs Vorpal Sword and Aegis Shield: From the rule book for the Staff: "There is only one staff. If a second player earns this reward, he may take this die from the current owner." How is this handled in the case of the Vorpal Sword and Aegis Shield? It is not clear.

21. Are Legendary Artifacts worth 1 Fame?

22. Are Familiars reset in Gust? Spells and One-use dice are mentioned specifically.

23. Are dice that had become wounded during combat such as Artifact Boomerang, Clockwork Gnome, Vorpal Sword, Aegis Shield, etc. reset in Gust? Are they still wounded or is their status reset to before-combat conditions?

24. Clarify that Vorpal Sword may be used on multiple dice in a combat (and likewise with Aegis shield). The rules state that their abilities are identical to Slash and Armor, but in this respect they are not.

25. From the rule book: "A player may forfeit a turn in order to REST." Clarify what actions, if any, can still be taken during a "forfeit" turn.

26. From the rule book: "Each spell may only be added to combat once." Can you clarify that abilities are different from spells, and that abilities (which may also be spells) may be used multiple times in a single combat?

27. Q): When two players are dueling, are other players allowed to interfere? A): Other players are welcome to interfere. Only the players in combat are taking turns, and if a third player wants to throw in a bomb, he may roll it whenever he wants. Only two players are in combat, but the other players are usually invested in the outcome. (Sam Coates on BGG 6/4/15) Addressing this in the new book would be good.

28. Q): If an assisting player has Reach (spear), can they change their mind about helping after rolling their dice? If so, how does that impact the active player and any agreements (which are binding)? If not, what is the value of the spear in this case? Same question with Scout (eye) -- if two heroes are fighting, which ones are allowed to back out after seeing the monster's die roll, and what is the end result? A): Apparently, the main intent of the rules was that Scout/Reach could be used as a bargaining chip. "I'll roll my dice with reach to show you how much I'll contribute to your battle, so that you'll want me to join" or "I'll use Scout before you decide to fight so that you know what you're up against, but only if you let me assist you". If you agree to help someone else and use Reach and/or Scout, you have to help even if the results are bad, because at that point, you have made an agreement and agreements are binding. If both parties agree to break the agreement, that is ok. "'Those are some bad rolls. I know I agreed to let you help, but let's run instead.' 'Ok!'" (Donn Hardy on BGG 6/24/14) Addressing this in the new book would be good.

29. Clarify that spells and abilities activated before being turned into a toad remain in effect.

30. From the rule book for Invisibility: "Only the active player may use Invisibility, and this ability ends that player’s turn." Define what actions, if any, can be taken on turn that is ended this way.

31. Clarify if Stun can be used to cancel any ability after the ability has caused dice to be rolled or re-rolled. The extreme example of a bad scenario is cancelling Gust after the combat dice have been re-rolled.

32. Define what a player can do on his turn if he decides not to fight the monster.

33. Define what a player can do on this turn after combat, whether he wins or loses.

34. From the rule book for Throw: "the THROW ability may not be used again until the end of your next turn." Define "the end of your next turn". Would it be better worded "after your next turn"?


Suggestions:
1. You need 4 Fame AND a Trophy to complete the win. You can acquire these in any order.

2. Once a player reaches the win condition the round must be completed. If he still has the win condition at the end of the round, and no other player also reaches the win condition by the end of the round, he is the winner. If any other players also reach the win condition then a final battle ensues between the tied players. Players not in the tie may not participate in any way once combat starts. The winner of the final battle is the Victor of the game.

3. The Crown, when drawn, can only be kept if it allows the player to complete the win condition. It will then be the player's challenge to defend it for the round in order to win the game. If it is drawn at any other time it must be returned to the bag. If it should be drawn as a 5th Fame point (perhaps as a reward after a trophy is won) it may be kept or returned and the reward re-drawn.

4. If you draw the Trap and defeat it (roll no Pain) you may continue your turn with another draw from the monster bag, or without drawing from the monster bag. Return the trap to the bag in either case.

5. Wounded dice may not be traded back to the Equipment or Artifact bag. They must be healed first.

6. If you use the Vorpal Sword and/or Aegis Shield abilities only once during combat then they are not automatically wounded. If you use either or both of them more than once they are automatically wounded whether successful or not.

7. Allow Monster abilities to affect an Assistant's combat dice as well. The reasoning is both the active player and the assistant are mutually invested in the combat. Why shield the Assistant?

8. If you attempt to use Invisibility to steal the Monster's treasure (even as the Rogue), and fail the roll, you are automatically discovered by the Monster and obligated to Combat.

9. Stun cannot be used to cancel an ability that has already caused dice to be rolled or re-rolled.

10. If you draw a Familiar or Class die on your turn as your first draw, you can choose to reject it. If you do, set it aside and re-draw. You must commit to the next die drawn and if it is a Monster you must fight. Return the set-aside die back to the bag after combat. (This option is not applicable with the Hunt ability.)


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