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Subject: Frustration and Therapy rss

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Dave Hill
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Alberta
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My apology in advance as this is going to be very long.

Just want to vent my frustration and maybe someone can help talk me down from the cliff’s edge. I am a new backer to Myth and have fallen in love with the game (well maybe the idea of the game). I backed at the hero level to get the base game and expansions along with the all in Modules. This was the most excited as I’ve ever been getting into a Kickstarter or any other board game, I have purchased.

Since that point I can say I have been nothing but disappointed in the way everything has played out and been handled. I was at the point that I was prepared to spend an additional 500.00 or more then I have already pledged (390.00), but am now at the point that I am considering trying to sell my pledge.

There has been a severe lack of communication and confusion (especially for new backers) that has only been alleviated by the dedicated user base, who continue to be amazing and the major selling point for this game (which is amusing as this has nothing to do with the company itself).

The pledge manager was released way later then they anticipated and without any kind of information/FAQ into questions that would appear to be obvious ahead of time (as these questions have been asked since before the manager launched). They are answering questions apparently one week at a time in the form of an update as apparently even though they were late launching they were unprepared for the pledger manager. Their best public speaking employee (Nikki, who is amazing), is so busy handling 2.0 upgrades that communication feels very poor.

On top of that we now have developmental changes to the modules that will force people to spend extra money that they did not believe they would have to (requiring bosses), not to mention needing the tile expansions which all should have been clarified to backers prior to the Kickstarter ending. As I was planning on spending more on the pledger manager this doesn’t affect me but still rubs me very much the wrong way. Obviously they are not going to be offering refunds for the all-in modules so there is no choice but to either spend more money or proxy and play the game not as it was intended (this refers more to the bosses then the tiles as they are cosmetic)

Also this statement from the Q&A and MythMod is very troublesome;
“1) Kenny pointed out that the modules are still under creative development. Given that, they have leeway in where they take the stories. They can go in pretty much any direction as the stories are being fleshed out.

What is to stop MegaCon from requiring something else in the module after the pledge manager that I did not purchase since I did not know I had to. Apparently they are saying they are free to change any requirements. I realize this is a Kickstarter and this is unfinished work and there are no guarantees but how am I supposed to feel comfortable with my pledge now. If I don’t buy one item then I will feel like I am not getting the whole module experience.

Also if they require bosses then why is the only way to purchase Syclopt on the website or the all in pack? Why offer a Rat module but not have a ratpack to flesh out to 20/4 without having to go to the website? They made a cyclops pack why not do the same for rats and elementals? Can we get more then 10 infected? By forcing to buy from the website you are making the process unnecessarily complicated with multiple purchase and multiple shippings/fees. As an example below, this is what I figured you would have to buy to cover all the modules additions. After the time it took to do this I am not even sure if I have everything needed or if it is correct.

2 Choices

Over the Top = 300.00
Tile Expansion 2 = 25.00
Total 325.00

OR

IA = 20.00
Rat King = 20.00
Cylcops = 20.00 (still hasn’t been clarified whether we get 10 or 20 Scyline and if this is a misprint in PM)
TileExpansion 1 & 2 = 50.00

Not available in Kickstarter, only through website.

Tile Suplement = 25.00
Syclopt = 25.00

Optional Filler Enemies for 20/4

Cyclops pack = 20.00

Not available in Kickstarter, only through website.

Iathi = 20.00
Iao = 20.00
Tailless = 20.00
Rath = 25.00
Total = 265.00

I know part of the idea of Myth is the free form questing but for me the appeal lays in the game play (card-based, tactical, and fully cooperative) and the stories quests that come from the modules. What frustrates me, is not the game but the whole way the Kickstarter is handled and the communication. I feel like if I sell my pledge and use the money back Gloomhaven and The Others: Seven Sins I will no longer have to worry that I will not receive what I thought was coming.

Thanks for reading and hopefully someone can provide some encouragement or even just some therapy…... The community for this game is one of the best I have seen, and the for the life of me I can’t figure out why but thanks, for everything everyone has shared and helped me with past, present or future.

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Kelly B
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Can't really speak to the frustration. I rode the first Kickstarter wave and now this one without any anxiety. What I can tell you is that on the other side of it, it is a fantastic game. I love the gameplay as do most people I show the game to who have played.

I am a UX researcher so the flaws are apparent to me in how these things are handled. Everything from the UI of the pledge manager to the handling of logistics of the campaign to lack of adequate play testing of 1.0. I can't speak well about how much of it has been handled however there are a few shining lights (Nikki, Alex).

Just know that I am immensely satisfied in how Myth turned out despite everything that was wrong with the campaign and I have complete faith that by just biding my time with this one, the same will happen. I'm looking to more awesomeness, eventually.

I've dropped (currently) $620 into this 2nd kickstarter and am prepared to drop more. I'm not blind to any of the bad things happening, primarily extending from bad communication. I don't have time to browse 3 websites to keep up with every little tidbit (thank goodness!) however Alex does a great job of bringing the most relevant bits to bgg, where I spend most of my time.

I can see by the posts up here how it can get real discouraging but given what you describe about what you want out of the game, I think you'll be okay.

I guess I have a sort of zen attitude regarding kickstarter campaigns. I understand people's frustration but I feel none of it. It will all eventually get ironed out even if it is by Nikki personally, and even if it takes a year (or a year after for Myth Journeyman 2.0).

Good wishes and pleasant journey. Don't read too much into everything you see.
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Marcus Taylor
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I'm pretty much where you are, Dave.

Not sure if I should hang on grimly until the 2.0 stuff appears or just cut my losses.

For now, sheer inertia keeps me hanging on.

MCG are never going to learn lessons or change the way they do things, so I'd just decide if it irritates you enough to get out now or if you can bite your tongue and accept it. There are no shortage of 'happy clappers' here who will tell you that everything is fine and you should just buy more stuff, so feel free to take their advice.
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Dan Renwick
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I took an interest in Myth knowing full well that the game had a lot of potential but that it had been a bumpy ride for its backers. Knowing that, I've never expected anything other than a bumpy ride, so I've never been disappointed.

I played a couple of games in the last few days and had a blast. That's all that really matters to me. The rest will sort itself out.
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daman whodaman
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TOTALLY UNDERSTAND!! been there and said so... i put an investment of nearly $900 and somewhat regret it but found ways to release the frustrations...

So much good games have since been released and going to be released soon. I officially put this BG on the shelf and dont plan to spend a penny more till they get their act together meaning i get what i paid for so far..

in the end i aint given up on them though surely WONT give them any more of my funds till i feel they deserve it. (this means i actually got to play a non buggy version...so hopefully 2.0 items arrive soon)

Dont wait for it is what i learned or you go MAD!! they still have a good concept though if it was upto me i'd fire them all or just waiting for a solid release and doing my goodbyes then...
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Josh Murphy
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As someone who loves Myth, and the guys and gals of MERCS, I'm advising you to cut and run.

Games are for fun! You're not having fun.

Maybe you're worried you'll be missing out on The One Game, but there is no such game (or maybe I'm projecting my own worries ). I can almost guarantee selling off your pledge will make you feel a lot better.
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Al Maguire
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If you are frustrated with the communication now it is only going to get worse. It seems that the closer their Kickstrarters get to delivery the less they communicate. See Myth 1 and Recon as examples.
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Tim Chase
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I think it's worth considering the following factors:
1) quality of product
2) price
3) communication
4) timeliness

Not everyone will have the same priority for these categories and not everyone will rate Myth the same. To me Myth rates extremely high on point 1 and is only getting better with 2.0 and new content. For my tastes, theyve hit it out of the park. Because of that, I'm willing to concede the other categories and be patient. To each their own, so you just need to decide what you're looking for and whether Myth will/may be worth it.
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Nicholas Kelsch
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You guys must not back a lot of KS...

Megacon can improve on a lot of things, but compared to their peers, they are easily in the middle of the pack of quality kickstarter experience and above the 50% mark.

Even the well-run campaigns get hit by chinese-new year, customs issues and slow-boating issues. Even the best campaigns have delays. If you think the current communication is 'bad', trust me, you don't know what bad is.

If anything, they communicate whenever they have content to share, updates of any sort and I can't think of what MORE they need to do unless they want to turn updates into weekly 'spam' like other KS where they send updates with no real content.

Considering Myth 1.0 delivered with good quality but rules problems, I am much more willing to give them slack knowing I will get quality miniatures, and letting them spend the appropriate time to get the rules right with community feedback the way 2.0 was done.
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MSgt Keats
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If you found BGG and are somehow in any way surprised by MCG comm issues, I honestly don't know what to tell you.
Nikki is the patron saint of MCG and should get a full hero deck for the way she daily rescues the team from themselves. I am holding off on finalizing the pledge manager due to the surprises that keep popping up now that the KS is over.
Honestly Myth IS VERY expensive if you want everything and it CAN be fun. If you're willing to gamble for certain VERY expensive versus MAYBE fun, then punish your credit card!
Have you watched gameplay videos with your gaming group? Projecting your gaming group for a year from now may be easy or hard, I could be stationed in korea by the time Myth drops, but pitch it to your current group and gauge interest.
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Martin Gallo
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I am a backer of the original game. by the time I got my copy the ranting about the rules was in full swing. I waited to see if I had purchased a duck or a swan until I eventually got tired of all the contradictory opinions and tried playing. The original rules were good at describing everything except how to play and I stopped in frustration. I waited long enough for the first rules rewrite, and it ll clicked. I played it and really enjoyed it so much I went all in for the Journeyman KS also. I never got completely comfortable with the rules but just learned to wing it and guess at designers intent (I am a long time RPGer, so this comes naturally).

Terrific game with terrific teething problems. Worth the effort for me, but I think you actually have to play it and figure it out for yourself.
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I think some of your fears may be overstated; for one the modules that you're getting with the kick starter are going to be different in retail modules released because you're getting the bosses and additional minions as stretch goals, you don't need them as part of the module. As for tiles, subbing an existing tile will not be a problem. If you feel that you have to own everything, that is a separate issue --a mental one. To play the game and enjoy yourself, don't sweat the small stuff. There is something about waiting for a game that creates so many largely unfounded negative comments and fears. If you backed the KS and went all in for the modules, you don't NEED anything else. Relax and forget about everything until a massive box arrives at your door!
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ross vance
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I'm a retail buyer of Myth early this year & got already nearly half of the content that is in 'over the top' (OTT), through Megacon website 'Unfortunately'I love the game along with many at my games club....so I want to get fill in the gaps rest through JM kickstarter....e.g I have rats, tile & quest exp. already but not sycline, lathe, Etrus, Urolok....so it would certainly be REALLY NICE for the likes of myself & others if 100% of the 'over the top content could be offered 'itemised' through the PM....only other choice seems to be to double up on lots of stuff by paying $300 for OTT... Or buy separately & pay lots of shipping to Oz. Also I would like to get some more crawlers, stalkers, grabbers & muckers through PM if possible.

...re communication, I actually think Megacon had done as much if not more than I would expect as well as IMHO seemingly making good decisions in the development of this KS project.
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Duncan Idaho
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nkelsch wrote:
Megacon can improve on a lot of things, but compared to their peers, they are easily in the middle of the pack of quality kickstarter experience and above the 50% mark.


Lol.

No.

They are not.

The guys at the company delivered a substandard product, late, and then openly insulted customers who were trying to help fix the mess they created. The miniatures are fantastic, but outside of that, they failed in every way possible. The rules are a mess to figure out, and once you do, the game is largely repetitive. I've backed many KS products, and while I've sold off most of them, this is easily in the top 3 worst experiences I've had (Robotech RPG Tactics being worse; and another, unknown quantity because I like to leave myself room for error.).

Outside of the box. That was pretty solid.
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Dan Renwick
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Like most games, some people will love it and some people will think it's boring or stupid.

If I was in the situation where I'd backed the Kickstarter but hadn't played the game, the first thing I'd do is find a way to play a few games. Either through a gaming group, buying a cheap second-hand copy that you'll sell again in a few months, or even by creating a print and play set with chess pieces and Descent tiles.

You may not be in that situation, Dave, but I think it's decent general advice. Games may look good in Kickstarter, but you'll never know if it's the game for you until you play it a few times.
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Dave Hill
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Thanks for all the replies, positive and negative.

With respect to this being a Kickstarter, and saying that it could be worse, yes this is true but maybe I've been fortunate in the projects I've backed and have had no issues, and my gaming group has only had one project with issues (Apex Predator card game). Just because there are lots of issues with Kickstarter projects does not excuse poor communication and bad planning and make it acceptable. I know tiles are interchangeable but as far as I can tell the bosses are not merely cosmetic and the darkness decks play a large role thus making them needed for the modules (and if anyone from MegaCon is reading this they should make available in the PM all the bosses individually because of this.... Ahem, Syclopt.

However hearing all the good thoughts about the game (issues aside) has made me a little excited again and feel a lot better with respect to keeping my pledge, and even adding some additional stuff. I have watched numerous videos and the game is so amazing to me, the issues can make one lose sight of that, and I will just have to tune them out and ride the wave.

Thanks everyone.
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Nicholas Kelsch
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Idaho11 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Megacon can improve on a lot of things, but compared to their peers, they are easily in the middle of the pack of quality kickstarter experience and above the 50% mark.


Lol.

No.

They are not.

The guys at the company delivered a substandard product, late, and then openly insulted customers who were trying to help fix the mess they created. The miniatures are fantastic, but outside of that, they failed in every way possible. The rules are a mess to figure out, and once you do, the game is largely repetitive. I've backed many KS products, and while I've sold off most of them, this is easily in the top 3 worst experiences I've had (Robotech RPG Tactics being worse; and another, unknown quantity because I like to leave myself room for error.).

Outside of the box. That was pretty solid.


I dunno, Virtually all miniature-based games have been late due to the same CHINA issues. Right now the only companies who seem to be on time are the ones who are on their 3-5th KS and have gotten past the learning curve and backers have forgotten due to happiness with the product.

As for communication, I would judge the communication as good and keeping us informed. It is open and relevant. I have seen many KS which say virtually nothing for multiple months even when they supposedly have stuff to report.

The rules were a hot mess. About a third of games I have backed ended up being auto-shelves due to simply being bad games. Myth was one of the ones which cemented never backing a game or maker without being able to see the rules fully before the end of the KS. No more vaporware. In regards to Journeyman, the 2.0 content had come out and addressed my issues and once clear how to play Myth was not just playable but fun. (Opposed to playable but just a crap game like other things)

Number one reason I backed Journeyman was the Minis were a home run for KS 1, I live the concepts and I trust the sculpts and materials.

So yeah, Even with the rule issues, this is in the top 50% in KS experiences compared to the dozens of boardgame/miniature KS I have backed.
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Leon Scheuber
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I haven't backed the first Kickstarter, so I can not comment on that. I bought the Captain Pledge second hand and have to say I like the game quite a bit.

Are the rules wonky at times? Yes.
Did the community had to help to make the game playable? Well, yes.
Are the rules still wonky? Yes, sometimes.

But still it's a very interesting game and tons of fun, imo.
For me Myth is really the kind of game for which Kickstarter is there for. No publisher would publish this game, really no one, but they just knocked it out the park.
And regarding the Kickstarter- most of the time the KS games look great on the KS page and when you get them the production is subpar. With Myth imo everything looks even better than on the KS page, so the production is second to none.
And the gameplay is just brilliant, when you unterstood the rules or made up your own rules.
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Michelle
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TSgtKeats wrote:
Nikki is the patron saint of MCG and should get a full hero deck for the way she daily rescues the team from themselves.


QFT.

My 2 cents: if you are just starting out with Myth, you definitely do not "need" the stuff they aren't offering yet in the PM. If you have the base game and the stretch goal stuff and the modules, you will have a zillion other minis you can use as proxies *if* you need extra rats or cyclops or what have you. You will have many different bosses to face off against. You will have hundreds of hours of play sessions. The add-on prices for things like bosses and extra minions are pretty much MSRP, so I'd recommend waiting on stuff like that and seeing if you even play the game often enough to want every last thing under the sun.
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Random Fleming
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Idaho11 wrote:
Outside of the box. That was pretty solid.


LOL!

I see what you did there.

padingtonhill wrote:
There has been a severe lack of communication and confusion (especially for new backers) that has only been alleviated by the dedicated user base, who continue to be amazing and the major selling point for this game (which is amusing as this has nothing to do with the company itself).


Thank you for recognizing that. The many of us here that really want to see Myth shine can get bogged down by frustrations too. I know I (and I hope others) really appreciate the compliment.
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padingtonhill wrote:
Just because there are lots of issues with Kickstarter projects does not excuse poor communication and bad planning and make it acceptable.


Until excuses hit 'em in the pocketbook, this statement, unfortunately, doesn't mean anything. MCG ironically had a good point with its Recon update: They only had leverage over their manufacturer because MCG refused to pay the entire cost of production before receiving the final figures. As a backer in KS, you're paying 100% of the cost upfront, and have no control over the project, except whatever you can do with your credit card company to try to get a refund. MCG *is* trying to put out a good product and has been generous with its miniatures and freebies, but it's still a complicated mess.

IMO, It's up to the backer to find companies with good communication and good planning -- and resist mouth-watering projects (Hi, Robotech!) from other companies. Aside from Reaper Miniatures and Dwarven Forge, who aren't even boardgame companies, I can't really name any companies that I can easily say qualify for both (though my boardgame KS experience is limited). CMON has good planning, but don't expect satisfactory two-way communication from them.

So, uh... Anyone picking up that new Warhammer card game? laugh
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The Game Steward
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Sam and Max wrote:
IMO, It's up to the backer to find companies with good communication and good planning -- and resist mouth-watering projects (Hi, Robotech!) from other companies. Aside from Reaper Miniatures and Dwarven Forge, who aren't even boardgame companies, I can't really name any companies that I can easily say qualify for both (though my boardgame KS experience is limited). CMON has good planning, but don't expect satisfactory two-way communication from them.


Stonemaier Games is probably the leader in the board game industry for communication and planning. Jamey Stegmaier is the bomb. Comparing SG to MCG is pretty funny, now that I think about it!
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Yevgen Ostroukhov
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nkelsch wrote:
You guys must not back a lot of KS...

Megacon can improve on a lot of things, but compared to their peers, they are easily in the middle of the pack of quality kickstarter experience and above the 50% mark.

Even the well-run campaigns get hit by chinese-new year, customs issues and slow-boating issues. Even the best campaigns have delays. If you think the current communication is 'bad', trust me, you don't know what bad is.

If anything, they communicate whenever they have content to share, updates of any sort and I can't think of what MORE they need to do unless they want to turn updates into weekly 'spam' like other KS where they send updates with no real content.

Considering Myth 1.0 delivered with good quality but rules problems, I am much more willing to give them slack knowing I will get quality miniatures, and letting them spend the appropriate time to get the rules right with community feedback the way 2.0 was done.


IMHO, one thing being late because you hit production issues or delivering a crappy game or a broken one - this can happen to anyone simply because of lack of experience.

Entirely different thing is designing a confusing addons scheme trying to squeeze the backers as much as possible.
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