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Emiliano Sciarra
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This is the new and revised official score system for BANG!. I definitely prefer this to the older one (which is here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/viewarticle.php3?articleid=3859).

Each player earns a reward at the end of every game according to the following table:

If Sheriff wins: $ 1500 x no. Outlaws to the Sheriff, $ 1000 x no. Outlaws to each Deputy still alive, $ 700 x no. Outlaws to each killed Deputy, $400 x no. Players to the Renegade if he reached the final duel with the Sheriff (but eventually lost).

If Outlaws win: $ 1000 x no. Outlaws to each Outlaw still alive, $ 800 x no. Outlaws to each killed Outlaw. $ 300 x no. Players to the Renegade if he is still alive; - $ 5000 to the Deputy if he killed the Sheriff.

If Renegade wins: $ 100 x no. Players to the Sheriff; $ 1500 x no. Players to the Renegade.

For a balanced result, play as many games as the number of players, and give each player the role of Sheriff the same number of times.

This new scoring system has two main advantages compared to the old one.
First, you can use it to compare results obtained on tables with a different number of players, which is useful if you are running a tournament.
Second, the Renegade has now much more power and flexibility in his choices. For a relatively low but very much easier reward he can side with the Outlaw as the old scoring system suggested, or he can side with the Law to reach the final duel -- by the way, this means that he must also kill all other Deputies: this is a hard choice to make.
With the new rules of the 2nd Edition, you should notice that you have to change slightly your playing habits to win tournaments (as well as games) especially when you are acting as an Outlaw.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
Personally, I think that a dead player should be rewarded just as much as a live player if their team wins.

This doesnt penalize you if people happen to pick on you, instead of the other guy.


Also: the Sheriff role is ALWAYS better than the deputy role in this scoring system. Either the sherriff will score the same number of points as the deputy (zero), or the sheriff will score more. Thus, unless you do balance things by giving everyone the sheriff once, it is unfair in favor of those who draw sheriff more than deputy.

I think either making the deputy reward equal to that of the sheriff when they win, or making there be a reward for the deputy if they are still alive in an outlaw win, would help balance this.


I like the changes to the renegade's rewards. It makes things much fairer for the renegade. I especially like the reward for reaching the final duel with the sheriff. This should be rewarded. I like the new system better than the old, though I still disagree on a couple points.
 
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Emiliano Sciarra
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
Alexfrog (#18922),

The whole system is conceived especially with a tournament in mind. So it is correct that to balance the Sheriff's rewards against the Deputies' ones everyone must play as the Sheriff the same number of times. I don't know if giving the Deputies the same reward as the Sheriff would be fair, but you can try that when you plan to play a very small number of games.
On the contrary, giving the Deputy a reward when the Outlaws win implies a terrible side effect: just imagine a Deputy actively trying to weaken his Sheriff to help the Outlaws end the game!
The fact that the dead players get less money than the live ones it's just a slight difference to reward a player differently from the others, in order to generate fewer ties between player scores. If you prefer, you can give dead players as much money as the others: in terms of balance this is not a factor.
Thank you for writing your comments. They are always helpful to improve one of the most difficult topics of this game.
 
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Luca Iennaco
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
Alexfrog (#18922),

You shouldn't reward a Deputy if the Sheriff goes to Boot Hill (i.e. is dead) since his team has lost (only the Renegade gets something even if defeated, simply because he is a VERY difficult role and needs some help to balance this out).

Creating a perfect score system for BANG! is impossible (I've tried, believe me); you must also be aware that only the Sheriff role is done exactly ONCE by each player, while the other roles are always assigned at random (so you should try to have a balance between being a Deputy or an Outlaw more than a Deputy and the Sheriff).

I think this score system is far better than the previous one (of course I would be glad to hear ideas to improve it).
 
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Emiliano Sciarra
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
I forgot to mention here that Luca Iennaco (aka Luke the Flaming) is the co-author of this new scoring system.
I wish to thank him for his comments, ideas and effort in this difficult task.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
Ok, I agree that you shouldnt reward the deputy for a sheriff loss, so then you must make the deputy reward equal to the sheriff reward. Otherwise it is ALWAYS better to draw sheriff instead of deputy, no matter what.

If you play so that everyone is sheriff once, it works, but that wont always be the case...

If you play so that everyone is sheriff once, it works just fine with deputy reward = sheriff reward. But deputy reward = sheriff reward is superior in the case where you do NOT play where everyone is sheriff once, and thus it is the superior system.


Also, based on the current scoring rules, I would not EVER want to be deputy. You score just as much for your win as the outlaws, however it is more difficult for the sheriff/deputy team to win than the outlaw team!

Deputy rewards must be increased to balance this...
 
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Emiliano Sciarra
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
Actually, with the 2nd edition rules the game is more balanced and the Outlaws are no more in a position of advantage. You have to play more cautiosusly as an Outlaw, especially if there is a strong Renegade. I saw horrible ends suffered by Outlaws who tried to play lightly under the new rules...
 
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Mark Shamrock
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
Alkan (#18887),

I'm a little slow here. Why does the Deputy get money for gunning down his own sheriff? $5000? Why wouldn't he just start going after the sheriff to collect the $5000? Seems he shouldn't get anything if his sheriff is killed? Doesn't that turn the original strategy of the game on it's head? -sheriff and deputies are on the same team, right?

What am I missing? Thanks.
 
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Stephen Cope
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
speedodaddy (#34869),

There is a minus sign (-) in front of the $5000 reward. The Deputy receives a negative penalty of $5000 if he kills the Sheriff. I thought the same thing the first time I read that...

Happy gaming,

--Stephen
 
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Chris Dierking
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
I got together with four friends one night specifically to play games. We started playing (my first game of) Bang! around 11:30pm, and after about the 8th game we had to finally break it up and go home. We had such a great time and we have no idea who won!

I think an easy, fun and fair way to score it would be to build it into the game. Each individual character could have a specific bounty on their head (based on their difilculty to kill: ability & bullet points), and would be modified by their particular job. When you eliminate a player, you get the 'reward' for their character whether you survive to the end of the game or not. The sizable bounty for the sheriff could be split among the living outlaws, etc.. There could also be a bonus simply for surviving.

I think this would balance out the fairness factor, while lending the possibility for the realistic element of backstabbing that would more truely represent the "old west". Possibly finishing off your dying outlaw partner to collect the price on his head.

Just a thought...
 
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Dave Wilson
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
[i]TylerChuit wrote:
...Possibly finishing off your dying outlaw partner to collect the price on his head.[i]

An outlaw's bounty are the three cards you get to draw when you kill him (as I had the pleasure to do twice today, as sheriff laugh )
 
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MYOB MYOB
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
daw65 (#36153),
'xactly. Besides, in a tournament setting, an outlaw -is- better off shooting his ally if he's certain he can take the sheriff without him. Fewer points for that guy=less chance of his "ally" winning the tournament. Similarly, a deputy is liable to "oops" his buddy once it's down to the wire.

Mind you, this sort of strategy can lead to a come-from-behind victory, but there's nothing wrong with that. If a team breaks up before the prize is completely secure, and they lose as a result, it's their own fault. (In particular, the Renegade should be encouraging this sort of behavior as much as possible...any death helps him going into the endgame.)
 
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Keith M. Sandler
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
This scoring system looks interesting, and I'm looking forward to trying it out at the game store I manage. Does anyone have any thoughts as to how it works with different numbers of people? (In our store, 8 people with the Dodge City expansion is not uncommon.)

Thanks for a great game, Emiliano!

--kMs
 
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MYOB MYOB
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
Why, exactly, is a deputy getting less if dead than an Outlaw?

My opinion is that a dead Deputy should get more, for two reasons. A is an aesthetic thing. After all, if a deputy dies in the line of duty, he's a hero, while if an outlaw dies, he's just another low-down rattlesnake who'll not get a share in the town's gold. This also encourages a little more altruism on their part.

B is that, as above, Deputies get the short end of the stick, scorewise, since if they win the sheriff wins more. They should have a slight insurance policy.
 
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MYOB MYOB
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
Next question...what happens if Sheriff dies to Renegade fire but the Deputies are still alive?
 
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Georgios P.
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
Ramidel wrote:
Next question...what happens if Sheriff dies to Renegade fire but the Deputies are still alive?


Outlaws win as Renegade is not the last person in play.

Even if all the outlaws are already dead, as their winning condition is not tied to the survival of any particular role.
 
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Stephen Michael Hickey
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
Hi Alkan,

Somehow I missed the fact the fact that you were the brilliant inventor of this game which is easily best fun card game on the market today.

Apologies if my critique caused offence. In fact I think the first version of my Scoring suggestion sucks and is unnecessarily complex when compared to the second one which is much simpler.

In any event, I generally prefer to play this without any scoring system, mano o mano and leave it to the historians to record the statistics.

Brilliant game!
 
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Brent Ross
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
I tend to dislike all of the scoring systems I've seen... simply put, they tend to change the game by turning what are valid tactical choices for a player for their team into incorrect choices for personal score. So I never play with any of them.

For example, killing team mates is often punished... yet it's not uncommon for that to be the correct move. As an outlaw, I'm not about to allow the the law to collect a 3 card bounty off of a team mate if I can help it... I dispose of the weak character and use the cards myself. Another example, is after all the Outlaws are dead... if I'm a Deputy and have a two opponents (one of which is the renegade) and one of them is a much larger threat to the Sheriff, I don't care if the dangerous one turns out to be a Deputy, I throw most of my effort at him... the Sheriff can take care of the easy one himself if that's the Renegade, so the risk of mutual suicide by the Deputies is a risk I'm willing to take. It might seem like it might be a good thing to stop that gung ho play, but it's actually in the Renegades best interest that that particular stage of the game be as short as possible (after all, he can't shoot at the Sheriff until it's done... so the Sheriff only grows stronger, while the other players suffer from attrition). Discouraging the Deputies from attacking at this stage actually seriously hurts the Renegade (it's really in the Deputies best interest to allow the Sheriff the maximum amount of time possible to recover from the Outlaws).

Simlarly, survival is often rewarded... yet I've made some decisive plays which have lead to both my death and the win. For example, I have willingly not played a miss out of my hand and died so that a fellow Outlaw could collect my reward instead of the Law. In other cases, I've done things like go volcanic on El Gringo, knowing that the end result would leave me in a very weak position (and it did get me killed, but it still was instrumental to the win... someone needed to do the painful work on him, and my hand was ideal for the job). Besides, survival in a game as chaotic as Bang! often comes from luck more than skill, or simply having not drawn a big target character in a game loaded with them.

The assumption of personal kills also changes the game. Racking up a body count is the Law/Renegade game... the Outlaws ideally end up with only 1 kill between them. Encouraging them to shoot other players might seem like a good idea, but the Outlaw side is considerably weaker in 2nd edition already. Besides, the outlaw that gets the Sheriff kill normally gets it because a fellow outlaw did most of the work setting it up... if the Outlaws are encouraged to wait until they can kill the Sheriff for themselves, they won't be playing as effectively as they need to (which is good for storys but not for game balance).

Scoring based on opponents faced is also a bit odd in the case of Deputies. Deputies don't really face anybody other than Deputies and the Renegade, and that doesn't happen until the Outlaws are all dead. Deputies as a rule don't need to worry about defense until then (they should discard defense in favour of hording offense in hand, waiting for the Outlaws to make a move and then jumping quickly)... if the Outlaws are bothering to shoot and kill the Deputies, it's a good sign that the Law is probably going to win.

Survival of team mates is also a bit silly. The game doesn't have any form of protection that you can use on other players, so this is really points based off of luck and the skill of others more than oneself. Add in the fact that the Deputies are not targets whereas all the Outlaws are big ones (even to their own members) and it just doesn't make much sense to factor that sort of thing at all to me.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
[quote]If Outlaws win: $ 1000 x no. Outlaws to each Outlaw still alive,[/quote]

Why would the Outlaws score higher if there are more of them against the same opposition? (5 players vs. 6 players)

It seems that the Outlaws would have an easier time winning under those circumstances.

Continuing that idea -- the score seems to consider S+D+D vs. O+O+O to be more difficult (for both the S+D and the O) than S+D vs. O+O

I can see that the Renegade would have a greater difficulty as the size of the table goes up, but I would think that the odds for the others were roughly the same (or slightly easier, as they both divide up the Renegade's lost share).

I'd expect the Renegade to score based on the number of players, but that the rest would have a flat score (perhaps with a bonus for being outnumbered, i.e., Outlaws get a bonus on even tables and Sheriff and Deputies get a bonus on odd tables (if they win, of course).

(And I agree that "winning side" is the only thing that should matter for them (S,D,O), not whether they lived or died -- matching the victory conditions given in the rules)
 
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Emiliano Sciarra
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
Steve99 (#454457)
you don't have to apologize if you think that something is wrong from your point of view: I don't even think of doing everything right, and I am always open to suggestions and (constructive) critics. So don't worry, no offence at all.
I will look at your suggestions as soon as I can. Thank you for your efforts in trying to devise a scoring system for Bang!.
 
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Emiliano Sciarra
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Re:Scoring System, 2nd Edition
bwross (#455642),
your notes are very interesting and come from an expert and competent player (it shows). However, as you surely know, devising a consistent scoring system for a game like Bang! is such a hard task, that I am still searching for a definitive version of it. On the other hand, something must be done both for tournaments and for linking several games to elect a final winner. The present system is not without flaws, but it works even it is far from perfect. Of course, if you have any suggestion I would be glad to discuss it.
 
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Stephen Michael Hickey
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I can relate to your preference for playing without a rigid scoring system. You also make some valid points but there are several statements that don't hold up for me.

Quote:
Deputies don't really face anybody other than Deputies

Deputies obviously face the outlaws who would naturally take any opportunity to eliminate a Deputy whose sole objective is to keep the Sheriff alive.

Quote:
Scoring based on opponents faced is also a bit odd in the case of Deputies.

Where a deputy has to face more outlaws, they should obviously get rewarded more than the Deputy who faces less. The fact that the Deputy is concealing his identity is immaterial as they have to make sure that the Sheriff is not defeated by the extra Outlaws who are a very real enemy to the Sheriff. So why shouldn't they get a marginal increase in score for facing a tougher challenge?

You also make reference to how any scoring system adversely affects the way the game is played. Well if you like the basic game, then enjoy it for what it is. But bear in mind the following. The introduction of any competitive system in any game will naturally affect the nature of the game. The fact that the certain rules do artificially change aspects of the game is no more a valid criticism than players of 10 minute chess who have to change their style of play to win, compared to those who play the unlimited timed version.

Every scoring system, whether it came with the original system or not, creates new and different strategies to win. The ultimate challenge is in how well you can adapt your game to suit. That is, if you can be bothered.
 
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Nikos Choriatellis
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Shouldn't there be some sort of a penalty for any teams that lose in a particular game ?
I know this messes things more than they already are, but I think that besides the scoring system on an individual basis there should be something that affects the scoring of the team as a whole for that particular game.
That way it would take more effort for someone who just doesn't care if his team wins as long as he gets his points. And also it secures somehow the fact that some players may take some actions of another player in a previous game personally, so they stop acting normally depending on their role they have in a particular game.
This situation occured in a game a while ago and I thought that if the only way to get your points is if your team wins, then you have to play for the team and not only for yourself.
I know that including this in an already complicating scoring system is a very difficult task, especially for the Renegade since he actually has no team, he just decides which way to go.
 
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