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Subject: I'm bored, so you should do something stupid. rss

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Will

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I was playing a tactical game with someone, and he had 2 units that I would have to be an idiot to go charging in on. To make matters worse, he won initiative at least 7 consecutive turns. He got annoyed that I was maneuvering around to get shots off without charging in on him to have the game end in 2 or 3 turns. I was gradually wearing him down, but it was taking a long time as the direction of the attack matters due to separate damage tracks. Eventually, he had just had enough, got fed up and decided to end the game. I realize the game went on a lot longer than he expected, but he seemed to think I should have just thrown the game to make it faster. Has anyone else dealt with something like that?
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Pete
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To tell you the truth, that's my favorite way to win.

Pete (likes frustrating the opponent in that way)
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IMO this is a game design issue, not unlike the "Monopoly problem". It's very common though - I don't mean it's a problem specific to whatever game you were playing.

There are examples of games where it doesn't happen, so we can't say it's impossible for a game to have "guaranteed fast finishes".

OTOH I'm not sure anyone really knows how to design such a game. I think it was accidental in the only such game I've played. The alternative is games with a fixed number of turns or a similar limit. This works very well for some types of game, but not for all.

IMO this is an aspect that should be considered by every game designer, and covered in every game review.
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Francisco Gutierrez
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I'm not accusing you of anything, but I dislike it when my opponent "turtles" in games. (I consider turtle-ing, holing up in the corner, massing troops, and refusing to move. Then waiting for me to take substantial losses when attacking you so you can mop me up.)
I feel that when you turtle, you are basically refusing to play.

Now. It sounds like you were still making smaller attacks, and there is nothing wrong with playing defensively .BUT could your opponent have felt that you were turtling?
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Will

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We were playing Silent Death (first edition) and he took 2 copies of the biggest unit in the game which basically have a 10 hex radius of death, and a single weapon that is forward only that goes out to 15 hexes. I took out the 2 light fighters he had taken to use up the rest of his points. I had fighters which were going to fall apart if I let him open up on them. Most of them had longer range firepower so I was maneuevering around trying to get shots off from 11 - 15 hex range outside of his forward arc. Every time I turned to come back in on him, he would do a tight turn (more than 1 hex facing) to bring his long range guns around. He also launched torpedoes on me almost every turn. By the time I started winning initiative so I could avoid his weapons, I had lost a couple of fighters so I couldn't bring enough in after his last move and/or I was too close, but needed to give up asteroid cover and get blasted at close range because I couldn't get out of range & get turned back around to get shots off from a safe distance. Basically, he was moving to the best of his ability, but expected me to not do the same.
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Pete
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The only part of this I don't understand is the part where you're not gloating.

Pete (totally would be)
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Will

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I am not much of a gloater. The guy who is was just watching the game. That is a whole other conversation.

It did remind me though of the time I beat a no win scenario. Back when I used to play Silent Death a lot, my main opponent had come up with a scenario in which I would start off with a force of my choosing with restrictions not based on points, but the number of crew. In each turn, he would bring in reinforcements by random selection of a sheet of units (which could be 4 very small fighters, 2 small to large fighters or 1 gunboat) limited only by the number of turns I held on. I switched up from my usual defensive style & went to his end of the map, and tore up his forces quickly so he couldn't build up very well. He was doing some damage so he would have eventually won, but he realized that it was going to take a lot longer than he had anticipated and conceded.
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Kyle
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Although I don't know this game, or play any game where I've made someone rage quit, my favourite victories in hearthstone are 'opponent left'. He didn't concede, or just play stupid, he rage quit the client. Those are the good ones.
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lizzie j
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I can kinda see why he got annoyed. If you added a ton of time to the game, that would be irritating - you probably were like "I have a tiny chance of winning if I do this" and he was probably thinking "Why can't he just admit defeat and we can go play something else?".

My boyfriend did this to me once in Summoner Wars - he was just walking around the board with his Summoner really (avoiding me) when I was definitely leading though I didn't have a million guys to go kill him off quickly. I probably would have won but after a while I just declared a tie. This was because it took the fun out of it for me due to the ridiculous length it added to the game. I was a bit annoyed at the time because that would have been the first time I would have won that game (he had played Magic when he was younger so usually schooled me at the game).

I personally think you should play in the spirit of the game - doubling the length of the game so that you can come a tiny bit closer to winning is a waste of time. That doesn't mean you should admit defeat every time winning is "unlikely" but sometimes you have to admit you've been outplayed.
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Will

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It wasn't a matter of being outplayed. It was a matter of him taking really powerful units, and expecting me rush in to get slaughtered. I just wasn't going to give him the opportunity to unleash their full firepower. He kept doing the best he could to win, but got annoyed that I didn't make it easy for him. I was wearing him down. He kept using torpedoes to chase me off, and after I reduced 1 down to a speed that prevented tight turns, he moved that 1 first to hold the other 1 back to do tight turns, so by the reasoning of do something to speed up the game rather than try to win, he was also dragging it out. If he feels that someone should make really bad moves to throw the game then he can stop what he is doing & let me kill him, but I don't expect my opponents to do that (at least not intentionally).
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Tomáš Sládek
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I disagree with the "tiny chance of winning" and "spirit of the game" thing.

This kinda sounds like it was set up from the start to be a "boss fight" type of engagement, e.g. brute power vs maneuverability. If the "underdog" can evade, those often take pretty long because the bosses have giant HP pools that take forever to chew through. And that is something the other player should have realized going into the game and expect such gameplay. If I understand it correctly, he basically created the scenario via his ship choice. Thus he should have no rights to complain about the way it went down.
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Will

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The Babylon Project was our last best hope for peace. It failed. In the year of the Shadow War, it became something greater, our last best hope for victory.
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Borghal wrote:
I disagree with the "tiny chance of winning" and "spirit of the game" thing.

This kinda sounds like it was set up from the start to be a "boss fight" type of engagement, e.g. brute power vs maneuverability. If the "underdog" can evade, those often take pretty long because the bosses have giant HP pools that take forever to chew through. And that is something the other player should have realized going into the game and expect such gameplay. If I understand it correctly, he basically created the scenario via his ship choice. Thus he should have no rights to complain about the way it went down.


This is exactly what happened.
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Russ Williams
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As described, it sounds like you did nothing wrong and that your thread subject accurately describes what your opponent was unreasonably expecting.

If someone doesn't like games of maneuver which can potentially last many turns until one side is eliminated, then there are plenty of alternative games to play e.g. which last a fixed number of turns.
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Russ Williams
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joetaco wrote:
I'm not accusing you of anything, but I dislike it when my opponent "turtles" in games. (I consider turtle-ing, holing up in the corner, massing troops, and refusing to move. Then waiting for me to take substantial losses when attacking you so you can mop me up.)
I feel that when you turtle, you are basically refusing to play.

Now. It sounds like you were still making smaller attacks, and there is nothing wrong with playing defensively .BUT could your opponent have felt that you were turtling?


"Turtling" and "waiting for the opponent to take substantial losses" only makes sense as a concept in a multiplayer game. If I understand the OP correctly this was a 2-player game, and no one else was meanwhile attacking or damaging the opponent. (Right? If it was a multiplayer game and everyone except one player was actively fighting while one player stayed aside and waited to pounce on the surviving fighter, then I would agree that could be annoying or "not in the spirit of things" depending on the group ethos.)
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Matthijs NL
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In my opinion the fault lies with your opponent. He was hoping for you to make the suboptimal play. After some time he should have seen that you wouldnt and change tactics accordingly. The onus of bringing around a faster resolution was on him. He should have conceded the game when he saw he was going to lose in the long run or have taken offensive action.
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Will

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Yes, it was a 2 player game. There was someone else who wanted to join in & make it a 3 player game, but I knew that would simply come down to them ganging up on me. The guy who wanted to join in has a compulsion for dick moves, especially toward me. We recently played Betrayal at the House on the Hill, and he gleefully took on the betrayer role. He bypassed other targets just to screw me over, and laughed about how I was the only one to get killed off, but like I mentioned earlier, that guy is a whole other conversation. There was no way I was going to play this game with him as a third player.
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Perry Fergin
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I think this is exactly the whole point of gaming, especially wargaming. You come up with a strategy to win, even when it seems impossible.
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Ben Goodman
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I have definitely felt frustrated at the game being drawn out when there is a clear winner. I am uncertain here if there was a clear winner at the point in the game you were talking about. I would only end a game if I was being absolutely decimated and I did not want to waste another 15 minutes playing it out.

Chess is a good example of this. If you are down a bunch of pieces, the player losing will usually give up (and I mean a bunch of pieces, like if someone captured your queen, a rook and lets say a bishop, you are getting destroyed, you exhaust your options trying to get a surprise mate and see the other player is too good for it). Specially since chess can take such a long time to play.

As a rule, if I am at a game night, I won't give up on a game, but if it is just a friend and I am feeling frustrated, I expect them to understand. I had a friend rage quit playing Cribbage with me a few times because I kept beating him. I understood his frustration. That being said he had beaten me about 150 times at chess when I had only won a single game and I had been really patient about it, but I understand other people are less patient.

Friends = forgivable if it's a 2 player matchup
Acquaintances at game nights = not forgivable unless they are admitting defeat in a 2 player matchup (sometimes with the more complex/tough games to play the first couple times you play you will get destroyed because you don't know the rules well enough)
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In Chess and Go, you're expected to resign when it's clear your opponent will win.

In Go (which I play a lot more) there's a period in which you might take greater risks in the hope of turning the game around. This is expected by your opponent, and adds some spice to the game. There's a proverb for the likely winner: "a rich man shouldn't pick fights" (the negative is taken to be true as well).

This is one alternative to e.g. limited-turn games, but in practice it doesn't seem to work as well with a lot of board games, where there's an unspoken assumption that games should be completed.

I prefer resigning a lost game, and starting a new one.
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Peter Millen
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From [url]www.imdb.com/title/tt0069436/ [/url]

Lt. Harry Garnett DeBuin: Where will he fight us?

McIntosh: He don't mean to fight you no place, Lieutenant. He only wants to kill you.

You were playing a perfect asymmetric warfare strategy. Your opponent was quite right to feel frustrated.

Well done you,
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Lord Tekeda, We had overwhelming advantage over the enemy. They should have submitted to our will, but instead they fought and defeated us!

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Michael Hyland

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That sounds like the most boring situation imaginable. I would have said you will eventually win by wearing me down from your maneuverability so I resign at this point. I don't like the idea of a suicide attack just to end the game rather than using words and stating up front the situation. Once it's on the table then saying like I think I lost so I'm going all in for one last attack makes that same situation not so bad because you acknowledged you lost and want to go out with a bang.

It's childish not to resign vs. throwing the game away like that. However, it seems like you fully expected him to play out this excruciating lost position. Maybe you shouldn't have expected that either and stated the obvious. I think I could bleed you out because you can't out maneuver me but it's going to take 2 more hours. Should we still continue or end it here?

I like playing war games and such but these weird sort of stale mates, or situations where someone is likely to win by slowly killing you over the course of 3 additional hours and that result is pretty clear seem pointless, unless you are playing out something for historical interest.

You both ended up mad in the end which is too bad.
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Bryan Thunkd
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Vapix wrote:
In Chess and Go, you're expected to resign when it's clear your opponent will win.
Except that it's not always so clear cut who will win. There have been many times where it looks like one player has a massive disadvantage, let's say a group that will clearly die, but a fight halfway across the board ends up spilling over in such a way that the status of that original group is suddenly changed.

In handicap games, the game usually starts looking like one side has won. Often white must simply keep playing, making things complicated, until black makes some missteps.

So yes, it's generally considered rude to keep playing when the position is hopeless... but all too often the position has more potential than one player realizes. I know I've lost games that I thought were clearly mine to win and vice versa.
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that Matt
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coltbeatsall wrote:
I can kinda see why he got annoyed. If you added a ton of time to the game, that would be irritating - you probably were like "I have a tiny chance of winning if I do this" and he was probably thinking "Why can't he just admit defeat and we can go play something else?".

My boyfriend did this to me once in Summoner Wars - he was just walking around the board with his Summoner really (avoiding me) when I was definitely leading though I didn't have a million guys to go kill him off quickly. I probably would have won but after a while I just declared a tie. This was because it took the fun out of it for me due to the ridiculous length it added to the game. I was a bit annoyed at the time because that would have been the first time I would have won that game (he had played Magic when he was younger so usually schooled me at the game).

I personally think you should play in the spirit of the game - doubling the length of the game so that you can come a tiny bit closer to winning is a waste of time. That doesn't mean you should admit defeat every time winning is "unlikely" but sometimes you have to admit you've been outplayed.

I partially agree -- but the spirit of the game is something determined by the players, not the game in the box.

I've played thousands of games of Magic and Hearthstone against strangers as competitively as possible. If that means that my best moves are playing conservatively until our decks are down to zero while the game drags on for an hour, that's fine by me. It's about who wins.

My wife and I do not play games with that kind of competitive spirit, and I wouldn't drag any game on forever just to eke out a win. It's not about who wins.
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Will

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Basically, with enough time, I would have picked away at him by shooting at him with my long range weapons, but he kept taking steps to prevent me from getting those shots as I would expect of an opponent. He was exploiting his strengths & I was exploiting my strengths, which is as it should be. That is in the spirit of the game. He refused to make intentionally bad moves because him losing wasn't worth speeding up the game, but my losing was worth it to him so he expected me to make intentionally bad moves.

As Borghal put it, that guy set up that situation by his selection of units. I just didn't feel like diving into a woodchipper which basically sums up what it would have been like had I charged in on even 1 of those things, but with 2, it was even more ridiculous to expect me to go for a quick resolution. As far as mentioning the way the game was dragging out, I had mentioned that other game from long ago hinting at the similarity of how it would drag out. He didn't take the hint, and kept going until he got fed up with it.
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