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Subject: Saska Teft Gadgeteer rss

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Stephan Wimmer
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One of her 3 XP cards is "Gadgeteer" which in part reads:

Quote:
You can attach 1 additional modification to each of your weapons.

Do you guys think this only works on weapons that alreay have slots? Or can Saska pimp a DXR-6 with a Tactical Display?

/edit:
Paul wrote back on this
Quote:
Hi Stephan,

Yes, this can allow a player to attach 1 modification to a weapon that would normally allow 0.

Thanks!

Paul Winchester
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
I'd say no, you can't get an attachment onto Items without modification slots in this manner.

The rules say:

RRG - Item Cards - Modifications wrote:
If an Item card
does not have any modification bars, modifications cannot be
attached to it.

Generally, the word 'cannot' trumps other abilities. There's a literal golden rule (RRG - p2) for cards and missions that use the word. This isn't a card nor mission, so that part doesn't necessarily apply, but it makes more sense than the alternative to me.

I'm not 100% sure, though.

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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
Something else they probably need to errata. I expect it would have been better written if it said "Your weapons gain an additional modification bar.", but that might have been tricky to understand the meaning.

As far as it goes, until(if) Errata the answer should be No . However -shrugs- play how you want.
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
Oh, and Saska doesn't really need a DXR with Tactical Display...

Power Converter gives her a Surge and let's her replace any die with Red ones
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Pasi Ojala
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
I think both interpretations are equally valid, although I think the intent would be to add an extra modification to each weapon regardless of how many slots they have. Gadgeteer does specify each of her weapons instead of specifying that it only affects weapons having mod slots.

The no-mod-bar-cannot-add-modifications argument is, however, rules as written, because Gadgeteer is not specific enough to override it.

So, it's not clear.

(I think not allowing mods without slots will probably be better balanced.)
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
Not to mention, some of the weapons without modifications don't have them for very good thematic reasons.

Saska might be a Brilliant Engineer, but would you really want her attaching an Extended Haft to Armored Gauntlets?
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Jeremy Steward
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
Simply adding 1 mod regardless of the weapon is simple and makes the most sense design - wise. Stipulating that the weapon must already have a mod slot is so over-complicated that it makes no sense, and I feel like the wording would be different if that were the case.

And allowing adding a mod to the mod-less weapons actually makes them good. As they are are all outclassed by any other same tier weapon with a mod.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
I just realised I can provide an example that has an official clarification. The Focused Condition allows you to roll an additional green die when making an attribute tests. The rules say that non-hero figures do not roll dice when making tests (Elite ones just get an auto-success). It has been officially ruled that a Focused Elite figure still gets only the auto-success and does not roll the green die as well as non-heroes do not roll dice.

The same ruling would apply here. The non-modifiable weapon might be able to have an additional modification, but the rules say they cannot have modifications. Thus, in the same way that a non-hero figure cannot roll the extra die, the non-modifiable weapon cannot add the additional modification.

No errata is needed, it is already consistent with existing rulings.

Deadwolf wrote:
Simply adding 1 mod regardless of the weapon is simple and makes the most sense design - wise. Stipulating that the weapon must already have a mod slot is so over-complicated that it makes no sense, and I feel like the wording would be different if that were the case.
Allowing Saska to create Armored Gauntlets with an Extended Haft and Vibro Knucklers with a Modified Hilt make much less sense to me.

Quote:
And allowing adding a mod to the mod-less weapons actually makes them good. As they are are all outclassed by any other same tier weapon with a mod.
I suggest you take another look at modless weapons. They are usually much better than other weapons in the same price range due to the fact that they do not have a modification slot. The other weapons don't compare until you have filled up their modification slots.


Edit: Thought I'd have a go at showing what Saska would look like with Extended Haft Armored Gauntlets...

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Christian Gienger
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
Oh, you know her father:

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Jo Bartok
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
It is very clear imho. One additional to whatever is there (0,1,2).
It means mods += 1.
It does not say a weapon she carries gains one add mod slot. Then I'd say no. It would mean mod-slots += 1 bit mod slots is not defined.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
So how do you reconcile the discrepancy with the official ruling on Focused non-heroes taking an attribute test?

Note that the rule isn't that weapons without modification bars can have zero modifications attached. It's that those with no bars cannot have them attached. Nothing removes that rule that they cannot have modifications, so it is exactly the same as the attribute test situation.
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Mårten Cederholm
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
Gonna be interesting to see the answer. My hope is that it does add an attachment in either case. But I don't think it will.
Was very disappointed when I found the official ruling on the subversive tactics card that adds evade if the attacker doesn't take a strain and that allies can take damage instead.
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Jeremy Steward
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
I'm pretty sure that the statement "may not have attachment" is simply referring to the fact that it has no mod slot and not to prevent future cards that add mod slots.

I also fail to see how focus on allies have any bearing in this.

Yes, extended haft on knucklers is wierd but it's a fringe case.

Anyway, I sent an email to FFG.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
While we await the response, I thought I'd attempt explaining this point one more time...

Deadwolf wrote:
I also fail to see how focus on allies have any bearing in this.

So with Focused, the relevant rules are:
• Focused: "When you declare an attack or attribute test, add 1 green die to the dice pool."
• Rules: "Only heroes roll dice for attribute tests."
• Official ruling: Non-heroes don't get to roll the green die in an attribute test.

And with Saska, we have:
• Gadgeteer: "You can attach 1 additional modification to each of your weapons."
• Rules: "If an Item card does not have any modification bars, modifications cannot be attached to it."

It seems exactly the same to me. You have a rule that is overriding the additional thing given by a card. A non-modifiable weapon still won't have any modification bars even with Gadgeteer. Thus, just like a non-hero is not able to roll the green die its been given, Saska would not be able to modify the weapon that has been given an additional modification.
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Mårten Cederholm
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
Clipper wrote:
While we await the response, I thought I'd attempt explaining this point one more time...

Deadwolf wrote:
I also fail to see how focus on allies have any bearing in this.

So with Focused, the relevant rules are:
• Focused: "When you declare an attack or attribute test, add 1 green die to the dice pool."
• Rules: "Only heroes roll dice for attribute tests."
• Official ruling: Non-heroes don't get to roll the green die in an attribute test.

And with Saska, we have:
• Gadgeteer: "You can attach 1 additional modification to each of your weapons."
• Rules: "If an Item card does not have any modification bars, modifications cannot be attached to it."

It seems exactly the same to me. You have a rule that is overriding the additional thing given by a card. A non-modifiable weapon still won't have any modification bars even with Gadgeteer. Thus, just like a non-hero is not able to roll the green die its been given, Saska would not be able to modify the weapon that has been given an additional modification.

Don't know if this is applicable.
RRG, page 2.
"Golden Rules...
...Card abilities can override the rules listed in this guide...
...if a card or mission uses the word canot, that effect is absolut..."

The golden rule does NOT say that rules in the RRG cannot be overruled.
So yeah, I say go for it

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Jorgen Peddersen
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
I addressed the Golden Rule and the fact it doesn't necessarily apply in my first post in the thread. However, if cards were to override rules in cases like this, then a Focused non-hero could roll the green die given to it in an attribute test as well.
 
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
An interesting thing is that the aspect of Gadgeteer under discussion has limited usefulness if it doesn't apply to 0 bar weapons.

With 2 bar weapons, how easy is it going to be to both draw and pay for 3 modifications with separate traits?

That leaves the skill only benefiting 1 bar weapons.
 
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
Clipper wrote:
I addressed the Golden Rule and the fact it doesn't necessarily apply in my first post in the thread. However, if cards were to override rules in cases like this, then a Focused non-hero could roll the green die given to it in an attribute test as well.

Isn't that just one interpretation of what the official clarification for elites and focus implies? Yes, it clarifies the interaction between elite's and focus.

But that doesn't mean it says anything about what overrides what. You appear to be assuming an interpretation of focus in which it might add the capability for a non-hero to roll dice in an attribute test.

But (e.g.) the focus condition card says nothing about giving the capability to roll dice, so an alternate interpretation is that in terms of rolling dice there was no conflict to be resolved. i.e. the only issue was whether focus was expended uselessly or not expended.

Hence, the clarification doesn't necessarily affect what overrides what and your example may not apply.
 
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Stephan Wimmer
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
For good measure, I already submitted a rules clarification to FFG for this. I hope the 30 days are over now
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Mårten Cederholm
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
Clipper wrote:
I addressed the Golden Rule and the fact it doesn't necessarily apply in my first post in the thread. However, if cards were to override rules in cases like this, then a Focused non-hero could roll the green die given to it in an attribute test as well.

I believe you are wrong, like I said the golden rule doesn't apply to the RRG only the Mission and cards.
So your example in your first post is incorrect.

So as far as the Card goes it overrules the RRG and this is true whatever FFG decides.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
MuRRe wrote:
I believe you are wrong, like I said the golden rule doesn't apply to the RRG only the Mission and cards.
That's what I said too! I didn't use the Golden Rule to try to prove my point, I just used it as an example to show that the word 'cannot' generally has power.

Quote:
So your example in your first post is incorrect.
I used it to show the word 'cannot' generally has power. I didn't say it applies in this situation.

And at the time, I wasn't fully sure of my position. Remembering the Focused ruling is what affirmed my belief.

Quote:
So as far as the Card goes it overrules the RRG and this is true whatever FFG decides.
Uh...
 
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Mårten Cederholm
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Re: Sasa Teft Gadgeteer
Clipper wrote:
MuRRe wrote:
I believe you are wrong, like I said the golden rule doesn't apply to the RRG only the Mission and cards.
That's what I said too! I didn't use the Golden Rule to try to prove my point, I just used it as an example to show that the word 'cannot' generally has power.

Quote:
So your example in your first post is incorrect.
I used it to show the word 'cannot' generally has power. I didn't say it applies in this situation.

And at the time, I wasn't fully sure of my position. Remembering the Focused ruling is what affirmed my belief.

Quote:
So as far as the Card goes it overrules the RRG and this is true whatever FFG decides.
Uh...

You are not saying my logic is wrong, right?

1. Card overrules RRG
2. Gadgeteer overrules RRG
3. You can use Gadgeteer and put a modification on a weapon that doesn't already have a slot.

What I meant is that FFG can OF COURSE rule what ever they want but as I see it the Golden Rule does apply.

Sorry for not reading it carefully enough though but I still think I'm right here.
 
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Stephan Wimmer
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MuRRe wrote:
You are not saying my logic is wrong, right?

1. Card overrules RRG
2. Gadgeteer overrules RRG
3. You can use Gadgeteer and put a modification on a weapon that doesn't already have a slot.

What I meant is that FFG can OF COURSE rule what ever they want but as I see it the Golden Rule does apply.

Sorry for not reading it carefully enough though but I still think I'm right here.

1. Card says that Allies get focused.
2. Card overrides RRG (saying non-unique Allies don't get a success on an attribute test).
3. You can roll a green die when perfoming an attribute test with an Ally.

Just ... that it doesn't work that way. See Clippers previous responses (and read them).
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Mårten Cederholm
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jacenat wrote:
MuRRe wrote:
You are not saying my logic is wrong, right?

1. Card overrules RRG
2. Gadgeteer overrules RRG
3. You can use Gadgeteer and put a modification on a weapon that doesn't already have a slot.

What I meant is that FFG can OF COURSE rule what ever they want but as I see it the Golden Rule does apply.

Sorry for not reading it carefully enough though but I still think I'm right here.

1. Card says that Allies get focused.
2. Card overrides RRG (saying non-unique Allies don't get a success on an attribute test).
3. You can roll a green die when perfoming an attribute test with an Ally.

Just ... that it doesn't work that way. See Clippers previous responses (and read them).

No, it doesn't work since there isn't an actual dice roll.
Are you referring to the Focus card giving a green die?
Cause if there is no dice roll there is no green die to add to a non existent dice roll.
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Stephan Wimmer
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MuRRe wrote:
jacenat wrote:
MuRRe wrote:
You are not saying my logic is wrong, right?

1. Card overrules RRG
2. Gadgeteer overrules RRG
3. You can use Gadgeteer and put a modification on a weapon that doesn't already have a slot.

What I meant is that FFG can OF COURSE rule what ever they want but as I see it the Golden Rule does apply.

Sorry for not reading it carefully enough though but I still think I'm right here.

1. Card says that Allies get focused.
2. Card overrides RRG (saying non-unique Allies don't get a success on an attribute test).
3. You can roll a green die when perfoming an attribute test with an Ally.

Just ... that it doesn't work that way. See Clippers previous responses (and read them).

No, it doesn't work since there isn't an actual dice roll.
Are you referring to the Focus card giving a green die?
Cause if there is no dice roll there is no green die to add to a non existent dice roll.

Quoting Clipper ... again

Clipper wrote:
I just realised I can provide an example that has an official clarification. The Focused Condition allows you to roll an additional green die when making an attribute tests. The rules say that non-hero figures do not roll dice when making tests (Elite ones just get an auto-success). It has been officially ruled that a Focused Elite figure still gets only the auto-success and does not roll the green die as well as non-heroes do not roll dice.

The same ruling would apply here. The non-modifiable weapon might be able to have an additional modification, but the rules say they cannot have modifications. Thus, in the same way that a non-hero figure cannot roll the extra die, the non-modifiable weapon cannot add the additional modification.

Allies can not roll on attribute tests.
Weapons without slot bars can not have attachments.

Neither Focused nor Gadgeteer does change this. This is infering out of previous rules clarifications which is the only information we have so far.

So currently, I will rule that Gadgeteer will not be able to attach modifications onto weapons without slot bars. Until I hear otherwise directly from FFG.
 
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