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Subject: How do you take objectives quickly? rss

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kalvin connor
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Simple question. People keep complaining about how zerging turn one is the best strategy. I experienced a very bad time by doing this. I have no idea why this is the best percieved strategy. My guys just died so fast. And I also failed on rigging. I just dont understand how this works.
 
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The zerg seems to go like this> Cannon fire on an objective, possibly get lucky and clear it of deckhands. Take heroes over with rigging and get in 1 shot and possibly take out an objective turn 1.

This can be absolutely crippling for the player who goes second.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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not_a_cylon wrote:
The zerg seems to go like this> Cannon fire on an objective, possibly get lucky and clear it of deckhands. Take heroes over with rigging and get in 1 shot and possibly take out an objective turn 1.

This can be absolutely crippling for the player who goes second.


In my experience just getting one objective quicky, or even 2, doesn't give it's perceived advantage unless your opponent has bad luck of their own in concert with it. Even if you get ahead, it's likely Lady Luck will deal you setbacks and make up for it.

The perceived first player advantage is largely offset once the second players crew move in and their heroes are on the board; especially if they decide to pressure your objectives in kind.

The buildup of deckhands on the unmolested objectives is not to be discounted, which is why I start attacking their objectives ASAP. Once crew begins to stack up suddenly things slow down, and if you've started hammering their objectives, the crew is very light on their back end. They will try to offset it with bosuns there, leaving other objectives to weaken more and more, and forming openings.
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Michael Shinall
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not_a_cylon wrote:
The zerg seems to go like this> Cannon fire on an objective, possibly get lucky and clear it of deckhands. Take heroes over with rigging and get in 1 shot and possibly take out an objective turn 1.

This can be absolutely crippling for the player who goes second.





Let's break down exactly what has to happen here:

TARGETING CENTER OBJECTIVE:

Deck Gun Fires: 4 Shots, hits on a 4+ (Meaning average 2 hits). Again, this will on average kill 2 Deckhands, leaving 2.

Hero 1, who is directly across, must spend 2 Move Actions to reach the point. Going to be using Basic Attacks because all your Heroes only have 1 Coin at this point. Standard Basic Attacks usually fall into 2 categories: 3+ to Hit, 3 Dice and 4+ to Hit, 4 Dice. Either way, Average is 2 hits. That Hero has now cleared the Objective of Deck Hands, but has dealt it no damage.

Hero 2 now activates. In order to reach the center Objective he needs to spend 1 Move to advance up, then perform a Rigging Check of a 3+ to get into position to attack. If he fails, he's overboard. Note this is the only way he can get close enough to have the 1 remaining action to attack.

He succeeds, he performs an attack- again, same as above, average is going to be 2 hits.

2 Damage is now on the objective.

Hero 3 then activates and MUST perform the same series of actions to reach the center point, and will on average net 2 more damage.

End of Turn 1: Center Objective has taken an average of 4 damage, Player 1's Heroes are now sitting in the open, each adjacent to the center objective.

This is just talking about average rolls, but a breakdown of what had to happen:

1. Deck Gun Hits 50% of its shots.
2. Hero 1 Hits 50% of his attacks.
3. Neither Hero 2 or 3 fails their Rigging Check (having a 66% chance of success. Failure not only means no damage but they are out for a full round).
4. Both Heroes hit an average of 50% of their attacks.

Even all that still only nets 4 damage on the Center Objective.


Now, let's take a look at what happens on Player B's turn.

Player B Shoots Deck Gun, targeting any of the 3 Heroes of their choice. Average 2 damage.

Player B spawns Gunner on center Spawn Point. Gunner proceeds to take 3 actions of attacks at same Hero who was hit by Deck Gun- noting he is in range of any Hero he wishes to shoot at. 3 Attacks, averaging 2 hits per shot for a total of 6 damage. Best target though is one of the Heroes on the side, for next reason:

Player B's second Hero spends 1 move action and moves next to wounded hero. Performs 1 attack, again, average 2 damage. Hero with 10 is now dead.

Player B Hero B moves onto Center Objective to protect it.

NOTE: This is assuming ALL of Player A's Heroes had at least 10 Health. If any of these Heroes had 8 Health it died to the Gunner. Hero B is actually now free to attack Player A's ship OR go after another Hero from Player A**

Player B's third Hero moves up and performs 2 attack actions on a remaining Hero, netting 4 damage, again, assuming they all had 10 HP. If the second Hero only had 8, then Player B's third Hero can move up and attack, netting another 2 damage.

End of Player B's turn: Objective has taken average 4 damage. Player A is down 1 Hero, second Hero has between 4-6 damage on him/her. Third Hero is fresh, but wounded Objective has a fresh Hero on it. No easy target is available.



Let's take a look now at going after a side objective:

Player A shoots Deck Gun, again, 2 hits, 2 Deck Hands remaining. Hero that is across from side objective moves up, spending 2 actions to reach Objective. 1 Attack action netting 2 hits. Deck Hands are cleared, objective has no damage.

Center Hero moves up with 1 action and must perform a Rigging Check of 3+ to reach objective. Same as above, if failed then in the water, assuming he doesnt.

Hero B has 1 action to attack and will average 2 hits on the Objective.

Hero C has no way of actually reaching the Objective to damage it unless he performs and succeeds on a Rigging Check of a 5+ and manages to put 2 more damage on the objective, for a total of 4.




Again all this is based on average rolling, and that is all you can work with on this. Sure, there may be the odd case when someone tries this and rolls 4 out of 4 hits on their Deck Gun, then their Heroes score 4 out of 4 hits with all their attacks and takes the Objective down, but this is not how the odds roll out, and I would counter by saying its just as likely their opponent activates and hits all their attacks, KO'ing 2 of their Heroes Turn 1. If that happens then Player B has another full round to take down whatever point they want on Player A's ship, as there will automatically be a less guarded point with how the Deck Hands spawn.




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Max Maloney
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not_a_cylon wrote:
The zerg seems to go like this> Cannon fire on an objective, possibly get lucky and clear it of deckhands.

1 out of 16 odds to succeed on that roll means you must be very lucky indeed!
 
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Manuel Bourgeois
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Thank you Michael Shinall!

I appriciate that you took the time to show people that you did take the rushing situation into account when you designed it.

I do however feel that there is still a significant first player advantage.

1 - The first player will recieve his/her 3 tide cards at the end of his/her first turn.

This means that Player 1 could have 'reaction' cards to play on Player 2's 1st turn. Player 2 was unable to play any cards during Player 1's first turn, and is unable to play any cards to counteract the cards being played on his/her first turn.

The game is very much one of momentum. A single stun or blind effect changes the result of the above example. A Parlay card or otherwise defensive card could stop a hero from being killed.

2 - The rushing situation may not statistically result in a dead objective, however you did not account for the value associated with the outcomes.

Succesfully killing an objective is worth more than losing a hero.

It would be like if I told you to flip a coin twice and if you called it right both times I would pay you 5x what you bet. The odds are only 25% but the pay off has a positive Expected Value. If you play the game continuously, I'd eventually be broke. Same reason the casinos make money, odds vs payout is in their favor.

I feel that even if you fail to blow up the objective the damage you deal to it makes it easy to kill later.

Objective damage is permenant, but losing a Hero is not.

 
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kalvin connor
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With my friend, we found the second player to have a better position. You have board position ALL game. It's insane. Id much rather be second. And, in second, you get to do this cool thing called picking the hero that you want to counter their hero. Plus I tried zurg turn one and saw for myself, unless you are really lucky, its not a good idea
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Max Maloney
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Daerthalus wrote:
The first player will recieve his/her 3 tide cards at the end of his/her first turn.

The verdict is still out, but this is the one thing I wonder about most of all.

Quote:
Objective damage is permenant, but losing a Hero is not.

Losing a Hero also costs you a Hero on the board for a full turn afterward. That tempo loss can be exploited.

I do think the first player advantage is vastly overstated or even non-existent. The ability to respond to what the first player does is very powerful, both in terms of matching your Hero choices to theirs as well as responding to their positioning choices.
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Mark Silverback
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Daerthalus wrote:
The game is very much one of momentum. A single stun or blind effect changes the result of the above example.
...
Objective damage is permenant, but losing a Hero is not.


This pretty much contradicts eachother. If this is indeed a game of momentum where a single status effect can lose you the game, losing a hero would be disastrous! :S

After playing a couple of games, in my opinion: only the tide card argument might hold some truth.
Everything else: just look at Michael's math!
 
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Wow, I'm sensing a lot of hostility. It was not my intention to say the game is bad or broken. I was just telling the OP what people were talking about when discussing zerg tactics.

Id say the game rules are fine, but the staggered hero spawning does help I think.

I'll see myself out....
 
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not_a_cylon wrote:
Wow, I'm sensing a lot of hostility. It was not my intention to say the game is bad or broken. I was just telling the OP what people were talking about when discussing zerg tactics.

Id say the game rules are fine, but the staggered hero spawning does help I think.

I'll see myself out....


Hostility? I'm not seeing any... This was an interesting read though!
 
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kalvin connor
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mattprice wrote:
not_a_cylon wrote:
Wow, I'm sensing a lot of hostility. It was not my intention to say the game is bad or broken. I was just telling the OP what people were talking about when discussing zerg tactics.

Id say the game rules are fine, but the staggered hero spawning does help I think.

I'll see myself out....


Hostility? I'm not seeing any... This was an interesting read though!


I didn't find hostility either. I was just pointing out how its a bad idea to go all out so soon. I personally think its the worst tactic and I think I showed why well enough.
 
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Manuel Bourgeois
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Quote:
This pretty much contradicts eachother. If this is indeed a game of momentum where a single status effect can lose you the game, losing a hero would be disastrous! :S

After playing a couple of games, in my opinion: only the tide card argument might hold some truth.
Everything else: just look at Michael's math!


I understand why you might feel that the statements are contradictory.

My intent was not to say that a single status effect loses you the game. It was to show that while Michael's math is valid, he was not taking into account the possibility for Team 1 to play a reactionary tide card and thus prevent a kill or some damage from team 2.

I should have also mentioned that winning in this game is about tempo AND action economy. You are correct that losing a hero is a tempo/momentum hit, but tide cards do not cost you any actions. So Team 1 spends all their actions to deal 4 damage to the objective, Team 2 spends all their actions to kill an enemy hero, but due to tide card effects fail.

At the end of both players turns.

Team 1 has 4 Damage on an Objective and 3 Heroes (one of which is close to being dead), 2 heroes with 1c each, 1 hero with 3c.

Team 2 has some deckhands/bosus on the objective, a 10-14 HP hero on the objective, a 8 HP hero on the deployment point, and another 10-14 HP next to Team 1's heroes.

Player 1 can now kill one or more of player 2s Heroes with relative ease. Especially the 8HP undefended Gunner that is 1-2 space away from Team 1's heroes.

Even if player 2 plays tide cards, player 1 might still have some cards to counteract one or more of the cards being played.

Alternatively there is a nice pile of 2-4 creeps to kill sitting right next to Team 1's heros ripe for the killing, which means special abilities are available now. Depending on the heros this could make quite the difference.

Mad Ivan with 3 coins from Turn 1, could activate his 3g attack, rolling 4 dice @ 3+ on the 2 Deckhand 2 Bosus objective, he would most likely get 4-5 hits (i think it is 4,44 hits on average). Enough to get 4 gold and do it again, on the same spot or move and hit the gunner with it.

Tide Cards can make a big difference.




 
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Mike Shore
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Daerthalus wrote:
Succesfully killing an objective is worth more than losing a hero.


This 100%. Contrary to the designers point of view, zerging objectives has always resulted in wins in my games. With Mazu it feels particularly broken. Sure, Michael keeps focusing on the 'average' rolls, which is fine - but take an example of the gunner from Mazu.

Don't have the game in front of me, so going off memory in one game:

Has first turn. Starts one gold.
Rigs over to other ship. One action.
Fires into four deckhands on wheel objective with basic attack. Gets 3 kills and gold.
Uses special ability that fires off eight dice... targets armory. Happy days. (Okay, average roll here could be considered four damage. But that is still four damage and an objective at half health.)

You could say there are lucky rolls in there, but even if I just ignored the deckhands and rigged across - I could basic attack the armory and that is four dice each attack I believe. It only has a health of 8. Even if my opponents heroes spawn and start hacking at me - they have to focus on that hero to take him down. Otherwise, on my next turn that objective is down for good. And if it is the armory then all my heroes get +2 health. Sorry, opponent, your life just got more difficult.

Meanwhile, while my opponent invests time in trying to hack down my gunner, Xia and the quartermaster will be on the opposite end of the ship and will no doubt have taken out the deck gun between them. Again even with basic attacks, it really isn't that hard. That's four victory points in the bag. And getting down a final objective, again, isn't too difficult - especially if my poor opponent is investing resources in going for one or two of mine.

Objectives are actually pretty weak in terms of health (except for the Mazu ones that have 12) and there is no way currently to heal them/repair them. So whenever there is a choice - do I hit this hero or do I hit this objective, usually the objective wins out.

Which I agree makes for pretty boring games actually. Hence, despite my early excitement for the game, it has already been shelved and may even see eBay sadly.

I don't really agree with Micheal's POV that rushing leads to failure. Feels like a guy desperately defending his game. Which is okay, but I can only go on my personal game experiences.
 
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Max Maloney
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Honestly, you are overly optimistic about the speed of hacking up objectives. Real odds are that it takes four uninterrupted actions to take out an 8hp objective. Attacking objectives generates no gold, so you cannot plan to use anything other than basic attacks if that is your focus.

Your points may or may not be valid, but you're definitely using very optimistic examples. Let's look at your example of Mister Koga taking down the Armory on turn one:

Spawns, steps one space forward and Rigs to between armory and rigging lines (4+ on one die): 50%

Attacks deckhands on rigging lines, getting 2+ hits: 68.75%

Attacks armory, getting 8 hits: 3.9%

Overall chance of this happening? 1.3% This should work for you an average of once every 75 attempts. Great strat, bro.

(This is actually more likely to work than basic attacking the armory straight up, which drops to 0.2% chance of success.)

The worst part of this plan is that it relies on a 4+ rigging check as your first action. Fully 50% of the time, you go right in the drink! If you do make that check, yes you are in a good position. Realistically, you probably drop ~5 hits on the objective and are nearly a lock to take it out next turn.

Probably your opponent gets one free hit on your with his deckhands, spawns a Gunner next to you, and shoots you for 6 more on average. Maybe 1/3 of the time he gets lucky and beats the odds by 1 hit and takes out.

So you're looking at 50% chance to rig into position followed by ~67% chance to take out the armory before you can be taken out. Overall, your plan is about a 1 in 3 shot. Doesn't sound that broken to me. You're going for an aggressive risky strategy, that gives a good payoff significantly less than half the time. That's about right.

Note that the opponent does not have to commit a ton to taking you out; he just spawns his gunner next to you. This puts a major threat on you, stops you about 1/3 of the time and almost certainly finishes off your gunner even if you do hit the armory. The other two opposing heroes are free to respond to the rest of your strategy.
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