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Subject: Game still not finished. Are we Beta testers? rss

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Graham Smallwood
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January now, and there are still no full official scenarios and no hint of an army/terrain creation system. Out of the box this game just isn't worth the top-ten-of-all-time ratings it is getting. Yes, in the future there may very well be fabulous new armies full of cool minis, and new monsters, and new heroes, and therefore a System of dynamically picking what forces you can play with, but does the current state of the game really warrant the legions of 10 ratings? This game isn't a System, it is a preview of a System.

HeroScape is a System. Imagine that game with the force selection baked in to the maps instead of chosen by point-buy and drafting.

Combat Commander is a System. Comes with a bunch of scenarios, and an infinitely replayable random misison generator.

This is pretty much just a rant because I want this game to be better, so feel free to rant back if you love it in equal meaasure. But the point of fact that there are no official scenarios with full options activated will remain. And house rules don't enter in to the equation; I love the game I've made it in to too. BattleLore out of the box just isn't finished.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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Dorque wrote:
Out of the box this game just isn't worth the top-ten-of-all-time ratings it is getting.... BattleLore out of the box just isn't finished.


Valid opinions. Ones I disagree with wholeheartedly, but valid all the same. Are you still waiting for more scenarios for Go?
 
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Jason Maxwell
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How is this any different than what DoW did with Memoir '44? Or GMT with C&C:A. Or were you also upset about those as well?
 
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dave boulton
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i think its great!

to be honest i kind a like games that you ahve to make things up for, while i will ceratinly be getting any supplements i can afford it wouldnt botehr me ifn none weer ever relaesed

by experience im a role gamer and as such im used toand indeed enjoy makeing stuff up painstakeingly going into my own worlds to have them all become useless when someone releseases and "offiical" thing grr damn you GW!

but i think battlelore is fine as a game in the box, but i thought battlecry was as well

have you tried makeing any rules up yourself? makeing aplayable set of ca,paign rules is a farily easy thing to strat with

 
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This reminds me of when I saw Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring in the theatre.. and upon exiting.. I overheard someone say, "I thought it was okay.. but the ending was the worst ending to a film I have ever seen in my life."


laugh

I heard a similar expression as well. Yeah, I know the trilogy is popular and you would think that everyone should know about it. Still, I was surprised that they didn't have a "To Be Continued" message at the end of the movie.

(sorry about the rabbit trail . . . please carry on)
 
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Rob Buchler
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I've given it a 7, below my score for C&C:A, mainly because of the miniatures being too fiddly to move around the board - they look like skirmishers rather than blocks of troops after I move them. And I think it's too hard to tell the armies apart as presented. My solution has been to use my 28mm figures on a homemade hex mat, which are already painted and much easier to move around.

On a side note, I'm also seeing a similar drool factor being shown for Tide of Iron, which hasn't even had a rules release yet.
 
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Graham Smallwood
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TWO Equals in an "if" statement!!!
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JeremiahClayton wrote:
I am not sure why one would exclude house rules from the equation when the Richard Borg and Days of Wonder have encouraged people to alter/develop the system. I'd argue the game "out of the box" is indeed a system.. albeit a system that'll become more enjoyable in the future.


But isn't that... lazy? Sounds like "please finish our game for us". They just needed a Scenario 11 with a "pick one of these balanced starting army setups" on a good default terrain set. Oh, and rules for where Creature additions to your army get placed. The whole structured rule progression thing in the scenario book is leading to a final scenario that just doesn't exist.
 
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Jesse Smit
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I agree with you Graham.. Whilst i think its a good game it does feel a lot as though it was rushed into production and we were left with a not quite complete product. The fact that the rule book constantly tells you to refer to the website for parts of the rules and that these parts of the website arent even all online yet should be a dead give away.
The base game seems solid and well though out, but then it should be because its a system thats been our there for a long time now. The war council, and to some extent the creature, rules feel and read as though they had to push the game out the door at X date and thats as much as they had ready.
Im sure itll all come together in the near future (and as we spend more money on the expansions) but it would have been nice to have all these base rules in a single coherent package.
 
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Ted Kostek
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I have to admit to being a little disappointed with the scenario selection. Maybe I was looking for a deeper game than DoW made, but I don't really see the point of making most of the scenarios "learning" scenarios. These rules are hardly complex IMO. I would have preferred to see another 3-5 full bore scenarios that were reasonably well balanced.

Right now I'm in the cautiously optimistic category: I like what I see so far, but I would have liked more. If they continue to deliver, then it might turn into something really good.

Seems a little pricey in terms of play-per-dollars. I know about the high production values and all the minis, but when I buy a game I'm buying *play* not parts. I'd have preferred lower production values and more scenarios w/ higher quality.
 
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Brant Benoit
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The DoW Battlelore site actually has the online editor up and running. I have seen several user-made maps with the tool, all which are viewable in printer-friendly views.

Check the official Battlelore site. As long as you have a valid code from the game, the editor is free to use. It would seem there, at least to me, that there is TONS of support for the game, just visit the DoW site.

http://www.battlelore.com/index.php/?t=adventures&sub=fans&r...

I personally think it's a great game, and it's the first combat-oriented game my girlfriend has ever liked. It's well-suited for two players, easy to learn, allows for in-depth play, and is over-all fantastic.
 
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Universal Head
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I tell ya folks, I am never going to get into game publishing. You'd have to have the adage "you can please some people some of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time" tattooed on your forehead!
 
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Tim K.
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Dude, it's all about marketing and building anticipation. How long were we drooling for details on the base game? zombie

In the meantime, go fondle your earth elemental.
 
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William Payne
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This game feels unfinished to me as well. A middle ages battlefield without spears or pikes is stupid. These are not expansions, these should have been in there in the first place. As artillery should also have been. And horse archers. Etc Etc
 
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Jesse Smit
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Maybe I was looking for a deeper game than DoW made, but I don't really see the point of making most of the scenarios "learning" scenarios. These rules are hardly complex IMO. I would have preferred to see another 3-5 full bore scenarios that were reasonably well balanced.


Yes!It seems to me like DoW went insanely overboard with the whole learning experience; at the expense of quality scenarios and id argue even ease of learning the game.
They've managed to create an 80 page rule book out of a game that could easily have been explained in 10 or less. It takes forever to read and then subsequently find any specific rules when you have to wade through all that meaningless text and examples (some of which are not even correct). Its not hard to find entire pages in the Battlelore rulebook that are all waffle and no rules (see the intro to the lore section for instance).
Then you have the scenarios, two thirds of which use crippled versions of the system in an attempt to make things simpler, the end result being you get maybe four scenarios which use the system as a whole and if you went through them in proper order it would probably take you a few weeks to even get to the full game.
It IS a good game but its hard not to feel disappointed by what you get in the base game compared to all the other command and colours games.
 
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Tim K.
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Tisander wrote:
This game feels unfinished to me as well. A middle ages battlefield without spears or pikes is stupid. These are not expansions, these should have been in there in the first place. As artillery should also have been. And horse archers. Etc Etc

Yes, and how dare they leave out witches, fairies, and unicorns from the magic part of it?! C'mon! angry
 
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Graham Smallwood
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TWO Equals in an "if" statement!!!
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JeremiahClayton wrote:
Dorque wrote:
JeremiahClayton wrote:
I am not sure why one would exclude house rules from the equation when the Richard Borg and Days of Wonder have encouraged people to alter/develop the system. I'd argue the game "out of the box" is indeed a system.. albeit a system that'll become more enjoyable in the future.


But isn't that... lazy? Sounds like "please finish our game for us". They just needed a Scenario 11 with a "pick one of these balanced starting army setups" on a good default terrain set. Oh, and rules for where Creature additions to your army get placed. The whole structured rule progression thing in the scenario book is leading to a final scenario that just doesn't exist.


Is it not then lazy for Days of Wonder to ask players to select War Council members.. or in the "Scenario 11".. select an army?

I think the problem might be.. that you wanted a "final scenario".. when in reality.. because of the expansion-based design.. a "final scenario" is not possible.


For the War Council, they set clear rules. 6 total points, and no single guy over level 3. That's a customizeable structure. They designed it, I play with it. If they provided balanced army packages in Scenario 11, or a full point-buy system, then that is good in the same way. That's different from not providing any guidance on how to play the full game, but being "encouraged" to make up my own rules.

You are right, I totally am looking for a "final scenario". But I disagree that it isn't possible. That open ended Scenario 11 would put an infinite road of replayability at the end of the scenario book. Instead, it is a ten mission tutorial that hits a dead end.

I just want to pick my own army, and put a Giant in it. I can do it myself with the tools provided, but the professional game designer with years of experience should be structuring how I do so, not me the hack programmer.

(Thanks for the thread, JC. Going up from there: Brant, I know of the adventure editor, but it doesn't have rules on how to balance sides or terrain. Ted, yes, that's totally what I was trying to say; why all the warmup and then no full game? Jesse, amen, but I'd have been fine with it if they had polished those parts by now. Rob, dood, yeah, the Tide of Iron posts weird me out. Dave, I totally agree, I call this game a 9 the way I play it, but this post is about what's missing from the box. Jason, I guess I wanted more from this one; not just scenarios, but a whole system; maybe I just set myself up to be disappointed. Paul, Go comes with the pieces, the board, and the full rules about how they interact; it has scenarios as well (is there a way to survive in this corner type puzzles) but it also provides the infinite possibilities of a full System.)
 
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Universal Head
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It takes forever to read and then subsequently find any specific rules when you have to wade through all that meaningless text and example


I just posted a double-sided rules summary on www.battleloremaster.com that should solve this problem.
 
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Nathan Baumbach
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MrSkeletor wrote:
SorenK23 wrote:
On a side note, I'm also seeing a similar drool factor being shown for Tide of Iron, which hasn't even had a rules release yet.


Heh, don't worry, TOI is a fantasy flight game who certainly don't get a 'free pass' around these parts.


I so agree with you there.

I don't own BattleLore yet, but it sounds like an unfinished scenario and some long-desired web touches are taking a little long for some of the less patient of us.

 
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Ted Kostek
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mateybob wrote:
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Maybe I was looking for a deeper game than DoW made, but I don't really see the point of making most of the scenarios "learning" scenarios. These rules are hardly complex IMO. I would have preferred to see another 3-5 full bore scenarios that were reasonably well balanced.


Yes!It seems to me like DoW went insanely overboard with the whole learning experience; at the expense of quality scenarios and id argue even ease of learning the game.
They've managed to create an 80 page rule book out of a game that could easily have been explained in 10 or less.


Yeah, we're on the same page here.

Then again, I'm not sure who the prime audience is for this game. As some one w/ advanced degrees in engineering and who regularly plays medium-hard wargames, perhaps I shouldn't expect the manual and game to be pitched at my level. I think DoW targets families and kids moreso than people who are professionally geeky.
 
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Jesse Smit
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I think DoW targets families and kids moreso than people who are professionally geeky.

But I imagine the 80 page rule book would scare off most families and children. Ironically it seems to be more the professionally geeky that are drooling over the thing!
 
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Brian Morris
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Tisander wrote:
This game feels unfinished to me as well. A middle ages battlefield without spears or pikes is stupid. These are not expansions, these should have been in there in the first place. As artillery should also have been. And horse archers. Etc Etc


As it is the core game comes with 200+ figures and cost $70. How much more can you expect them to cram into the box? It's a core system and DoW has always said so. Unless you were hoping for a box twice as big at twice the price I don't think we could have expected to get all that you think was missing.
 
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Frank Hamrick
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Took me about two days - two greatly enjoyable days! I've been playing war games for 40+ years and this is as good as it gets. DoW knocked themselves out to produce this game and it brought me a lot of joy just reading the "80 page" book you mention. Anyone can find fault. Relax and enjoy it!
 
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David
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Yeah, damn those bastards. It's already the 3rd!!!!!! of January, the games been out for almost a month, and we haven't seen anything added except the Scenario editor and Lore Card Compendium.

Who the hell do these people think they are taking off "Christmas" and "New Years"? They should be developing every minute they can, only sleeping when they collapse from exhaustion.
 
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Matthew Wills
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ejamer wrote:
Thank goodness! I've been waiting for someone to wade through that wonderful looking and borderline useless excuse for a rule book to create a quick summary.


Borderline useless?

Its one of the best rulebooks I have ever read. Clear, with lots of examples and pictures.

The way the scenarios 'teach' you the game and the fact that two copies of every 'help' card are included (I think Memoir 44 included only one) makes the game very easy to teach. Only one person needs to have read the rules, they can then give the other person (the new player) the relevant cards and explain them as needed.
 
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William Payne
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Hands down, this is a well made game, one of the best,if not the best I have ever seen. Im not arguing that. The components are nothing short of awsome and the book rocks.

But agincourt without english longbows?
No spears?
 
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